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Author Topic: Off Road Success  (Read 26766 times)
amazing 1
Uncle Pervy Welshman
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« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2006, 10:44:18 pm »

Hey Mark that was me asking for the pics.Glad to hear you are working through your teething problems.

It was nice to meet you at LeMans. Grin
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« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2006, 10:10:13 am »

Well, time flies and the last round of the season is on us this weekend, venue now at Driffield (again), as the organisers couldn't get Sweet Lamb or Hafren.  So anyone up in that neck of the woods, or who fancies going there this coming weekend is welcome to come along and find us in the paddock (running number eight).  The venue is probably the best we go to for ease of access to the whole of the stage for spectators

At last we seem to be heading into a round this year with everything pretty much sorted (keeping fingers firmly crossed) Grin.   The gearbox casing and fuel tank are properly fixed.   The engine had been runing lean in Wales and that did need sorting, as although good, the car didn't feel anywhere near as sprightly as it should.  Sorting the fuelling out has been an interesting fault finding exercise, resulting in a reminder of the "dooohhh" variety, namely not to just look for electronic faults just because it's easy to blame the electonics when you can't be ars*d to think logicallly about the problem.

Initially when re-mapping the ECU, as we increased the fuelling, the engine started cutting out again after 2-3 seconds on full throttle.  After much swearing and a fruitless day spent programming, looking at fault codes and re-programming, it finally dawned that if the fuel being demanded by the ECU was not actually being supplied, then the ECU would just cut the engine.   

The engine had also becoming increasingly difficult to start, so we started looking at the fuel delivery pumps; the lift pump pushing out 3 bar was the first suspect (3 bar is pretty much on the lower limit and putting a gauge in the line showed how much it drops on acceleration - like to 1 bar) and was replaced, giving us a rise to 7 bar being supplied to the main injection pump.  No joy, as it still would not even fire up properly let alone run lean Angry.   Next stop, the main injector pump and control valve buried in the depths of the engine bay.  Replacement with a new pump and valve (as usual they come as a complete unit so you can't just buy the bit that's not working) and, well, hoo bloody rah at last - fired up first time, on the button, with the race fuelling programme, with the right sort of mix of grey and black smoke on acceleration.

Taking it out into the local fields and, oh my giddy wotsits, what a difference Grin Grin Grin - we are now way up onto a whole new level of power, torque and fun.   Doughnuts on dry concrete or tarmac.   And probably a whole new level of "I wonder which bit of the drivetrain will go twang first as well".    Still, that's another bridge to reach, we carry spares, and we'll see how we get on next weekend.  See you there if anyone makes it to the event.

And, yes amazing1, I will get the camera out and take some decent piccies of the engine bay for you (the last ones I took were cr*p).   

MG Mark
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amazing 1
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« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2006, 10:08:35 pm »

Good luck ! Wink
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« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2006, 01:00:22 pm »

It looks like the weather's going to be suitably foul, so hopefully this favours the torque of the diesel over the out-and-out BHP of the big V8s. Good luck Mark.
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« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2006, 09:42:42 am »

Well there we are, another season done and dusted.  The final round at Driffield last weekend saw us with the sort of performance level and reliability (mostly) that would have been really nice to have had nice at the start of the season  Grin Grin.  Links to a couple of pics of us at the weekend below.  Weather was mainly dry (Sunday was gloriously sunny and warm) although the course remained v. wet all weekend with plenty of standing water, puddles and swimming pools as well as mud.   

http://www.songasport.co.uk/06BORCr5/car008a.html
http://www.songasport.co.uk/06BORCr5/car008b.html

The car was finally running fully on song with its new injector pump, giving us a new dimension to exploring a greatly expanded acceleration envelope within the same braking envelope.  Saturday's runs (8 in all) saw us in 7th place mark overall, so we looked forward to a decent Sunday.....until about 400 yards into the first run on Sunday, over a couple of crests, we had a delightful "what the f***" moment, when the steering did not respond to the command to turn after landing.  After the "bo**ox" moments straight after that, we found that we had very limited steering and thankfully were able to cut off the course and get straight back into the paddock, rather than being stuck out on course waiting for recovery.   

One of the Panhard rod mounts at the front had decided it fancied a spell as a free agent, unconnected to the chassis.   A bit of field welding later saw us back out and running well to finish, but the maximum time scored on that first sunday run dropped us to 11th place overall - without it we would have finished at 6th or 7th overall. 

All in all, after a lot of frustration this year, it's nice now to be running further up the field than last year, having more than halved the gap to the overall winner compared to last year, with more to come from the engine.   The next step is to work out what gearing we should be running now that it is pumping out plenty of horses and lb/fts, and then whether upping the boost pressure on the existing turbo (running at 22psi at present) will do what's needed along with bigger injectors, or whether to go the whole hog and fit twin turbos.  Parallel turbos would be fairly easy and better for reducing lag at the expense of top end power, or sequential turbos would be better for both lag and top end but, by comparison, horrifically difficult to plumb in and control.  Either way, there is doubtless plenty to keep us busy in the close season!

MG Mark
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2007, 01:39:17 pm »

It's good to see MGMark back on CA.

It prompted me to wonder if there had been any recent Off Road Success, or indeed Off Road Failure, to report?
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2007, 03:20:51 pm »

It's good to see MGMark back on CA.

It prompted me to wonder if there had been any recent Off Road Success, or indeed Off Road Failure, to report?

Thank you kind sir - I've just returned from a 3-week Grand Tour of France, Switzerland and Italy in the missus's MGF, with many motorsport milestones visited or driven on during the tour, hence the absence from posting for a while (more of that perhaps in another thread) and am now catching up with the important things in life back at work....   Life has been hectic this year one way or another, and I had quite forgotten to keep this thread up to date for any interested readers - apologies.

Work over last winter following on from the final round in '06 at Driffield saw us with a gearbox rebuild, doubling the fuel pumps, revising the turbo, air intake and intercooler layout, and doing all of the usual routine end-of-season strip down, inspect, fix and reassembly work on the chassis and suspension, topped off with re-mapping the ECU to capitalise on the bigger injectors. By the start of the season this year, all appeared to be well, apart from an irritating intermittent cutting out problem, whereby ignition power would just die, but would reset immediately.....   

     The first three rounds of this year's championship have come and gone, with a new venue in Staffordshire for Round One, mid-Wales near Radnor for Round Two and Scotland for Round Three, each of them bringing their own joys in one form or another.....  A new control tyre is aimed at levelling the field, although as it now uses an All-Terrain rather than a Mud-Terrain tread pattern in the interests of minimising damage to the land on which we race, there were concerns over how well it would perform in the wet and in mud.

Round One was at a new venue for us, a disused Army Range at Baden Hall, for a dry, fast event over a relatively short 5-mile course on a mixture of tarmac, grass and woodland.  The car ran like a dream, with shed loads of power, and we were putting in times that had us sitting around 10th overall, which given that the venue had less off-road and more rally stage about it, was good.  The intermittent cutting out problem became less and less intermittent, although reset was immediate and we were able to restart on the move - not ideal, but we were only losing a few seconds a run as a consequence.  Unfortunately, the intermittent nature became more permanent on our penultimate run, when we lost 3-4 minutes getting restarted in mid-run.  Having traced the fault and fixed it (the ignition relay) we were heading up to the start area for the final run, when an intermittent knocking noise made itself heard.  This was a diesel-knock, heralding a failed injector, so we withdrew from the run rather than risk terminal damage to the engine, and scored a maximum time for that last run, which dropped us way down the order to 34th overall....
 
Preparing for Round Two, we fixed the ignition issue properly by relocating the relay away from the engine bay (where heat had been causing it to malfunction) and rationalised wiring.  The diesel knock had forced the removal of the injectors, all six of which (bar one) were revealed to be in what could be best described as a "state".  This prompted the fitting of uprated (for uprated, read meatier, bigger and expensive) injectors, allowing us to remap the ECU and some local testing after that showed yet further power and torque increases.  So with that all sorted, Round Two was at Bleddfa in Wales, again a new venue for us, over what promised to be a super 7-mile mixture of hills, grassland, hard tracks and some woodland.  With rain during the previous week to pave the way for some good off-road action, the venue lived up to that promise.  The car's performance was now, frankly, neck-snapping in terms of acceleration and top-end power, pullling well even uphill in fourth gear, which is an overdrive ratio.  Times were great, running in 7th overall until, as we landed after a high-speed crest and put the power back on, a rather loud bang announced the rear differential noisinly lunching itself.  The run finished with 2-wheel to the front and lots of loud clanking noises from the back, losing us around 2-3 minutes.  Much butchery with a hammer and cold chisel was needed to extract the differential, as the failure had been the carrier bearing caps...  Still, we got it out eventually, a new diff went in and off we went again, running well until suffering two punctures on successive runs put us back down the order into somwhere around 20th..  We worked out that the latter was through running the tyres with inner tubes (normal practice to prevent air loss if a wheel rim gets dented) and that with our increased power, the tyres were "shuffling" on the rim - once they reached a certain point, of course the valve ripped out and the air came out..  Dispensing with the inner tubes and adjusting the tyre pressures resolved that problem.  At this point, you start to think "if it isn't one thing, then it's another", although the language used was a tad more colourful!

Round Three saw us well set for a return to the Scottish venue at Castle O'Er near Lockerbie on a traditionally fast (scarily so in parts) and open 9-mile course on gravel track, hills, woodland and a couple of real off-road sections.  With the car now running completely reliably and with bags of power, we were happily sitting in 6th place with 3 of the 10 runs to go when, on the 7th run, my world in the left-hand seat quickly turned brown, green and wet, and that of my driver turned cloud-coloured (grey) as we slithered rapidly on our side, for about 100 yards along the bottom of a rather deep V-shaped drainage ditch that we had been pulled into on a high-speed right hander.  Nothing had changed about the corner or how we had taken it from the previous runs.  However, once the world had turned quiet and we had determined that we were both OK and worked out that we could not get the car out of the ditch ourselves, we extracted ourself from the car (which was effectively on its side) walked back up the course a little way, and then waited to warn following cars of the hazard and for the course recovery vehicle to get to us.  Once it did and the car was out of the ditch, it was immediately apparent that we'd picked up a puncture.  Although there was no way of telling definitively whether we had picked it up before the corner or in the ditch, we had entered an off-road section not far before it in a rather over-exuberant manner (driver missed the braking point...) and hit a rocky area off the track, so on balance it may have started to go down before the corner in question, and was flat as we entered it, which may be what had caused us to run wider than normal and get sucked into the ditch.  Definitively something of a "Sh*t" moment, as we had been running so well otherwise.  Recovery to the pits revealed a bust halfshaft as well as the puncture, which might have had something to do with it as well.  Although nothing else appeared to be bent, there was really no way of telling what else may have been done to the car without a proper inspection back at home.  After the ditch excursion at around 80mph, and with speeds getting well over the ton mark in other parts of the course in less benevolent surroundings, we decided that discretion was the better part of valour and called time on that event.  A bloody long way to go for a cr*p result, but at least we had been running well and competitively - a retrospective look at the times (assuming that we had carried on putting in the same good times for the last 3 runs) would have seen us finish 5th overall.

So, the story of this season so far is reallly one of unfulfilled promise.  As I've been away for 3 weeks, I don't know what else has been done to the car yet, other than that the initial assessment post-Scotland was that nothing major had been deranged.  We shall see in 2 weeks at Round 4 at the Sweet Lamb rally complex in Wales, whether the promising performance becomes a fulfilled reality at some point, and finally get to recapture some of our past achievements!

MG Mark
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2007, 04:18:09 pm »

Sounds interesting Mark, where abouts is the Sweet Lamb rally complex in Wales?
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2007, 04:19:43 pm »

Would love to see you at Sweet Lamb a great place to watch. Although I will be in Amsterdam working  Cry and others will probably be at Silverstone for the Britcar.

Where is the final event in Oco/Nov planned? Maybe I can try to make that one.

PIGLET...

Sweet Lamb Rally Complex is up in North Wales http://www.sweetlamb.co.uk/, not far from Aberystwyth (or however they spell it).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 04:22:24 pm by Rick Cutler » Logged
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« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2007, 05:06:10 pm »

Where is the final event in Oco/Nov planned? Maybe I can try to make that one.

Shame you can't make it, but you're right, it's a grand place to race at, and to watch the racing too. 

The final round is on 27/28 October, but with the location remaining "to be advised".  One of the other Welsh venues, probably around the Radnor or Walter's Arena areas would be my favourite guesses.  I know that the organisers have been having a few venue "issues" this year, so anything is possible, and I'll post the details as soon as they are confirmed.  In the meantime, although Rick can't make it to Sweet Lamb, anyone else is welcome to come along and say hi to us!

MG Mark
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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2007, 06:06:05 pm »

Wow, a pretty comprehensive "sports report" there Mark. Shocked Cheesy

In summary I guess there's been some off road success but unfortunately a bit more off road failure. Here's to an increased success ratio for next season.
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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2007, 09:51:15 am »

In summary I guess there's been some off road success but unfortunately a bit more off road failure. Here's to an increased success ratio for next season.

True indeed, but we prefer to call it "development".........

MG Mark
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« Reply #87 on: September 10, 2007, 01:40:03 pm »

Well, Round 4 at Sweet Lamb came and went, with a dusty, dry, warm and occasionally sunny weekend in the mountains of mid-Wales.  A course of nearly 7 miles was actually pretty much like a tarmac and gravel rally stage, with only about 400 yards that could be described as off-road, and over a mile of tarmc (!!!).  We're not entirely sure whether it was down to organisational incompetence, because of the sponsor's A/T tyre, or a combination of the two, but it definitely was not what should be expected for an off-road course.  The end result was a blisteringly fast course that was going to suit the new independent 4x4 306 look-alikes much more than the the live-axle spaceframes. 

Saturday was a good day and we put in good times and finished the day in 15th overall. The car was quick and reliable, as was my driver once he had got in the groove after the first couple of runs following some verbal encouragement.  Dust was an issue if you were catching the car in front, as once within a couple of hundred yards, visibility was zero - on some of the more open parts of the course, you could look across and see rooster trails of dust hanging in the air as though it were some sort of mini-Safari Rally.

Sunday started with a quick round from the off....right up to the point of a slow puncture becoming a flat tyre, which pitched us out wide on one corner.  This was followed by a sideways slide which got beyond the point of no return fairly rapidly and then, as the energy bled off and the tyres started to regain some grip on the gravel (at the same time as the wheel rim dug into the gravel) a gentle and perfectly executed 3-sided roll ensued, starting with my side, then onto the roof and finally coming to graceful halt on the driver's side....

Composure was regained and crew egress quickly achieved (we're getting quite good at this now....).  There was no apparent human damage, although it was difficult to tell about the driver, as he swore and stomped off to calm down, but that gave a reasonable indication that nothing was amiss there.  A marshal helped right the car, and it was clear that we hadn't done anything more than superficial damage to the bodywork (some nicely splintered fibreglass and a few bits of crumpled aluminium) and the deflated tyre, which was missing its valve completely (the same as in Scotland). 

I did not meet the driver's comment (repeating exactly that of the last occasion at the Scottish round) of "it felt a bit odd on the previous corner" with the response of "then why the fu**  didn't you back off", as I did not think that this would be very constructive in the circumstances.  A trundle back to the pits brought forth no horrible clanking or grinding noises, so we could have gone out again with a few minutes metal bashing, application of duct tape to fibreglass, and a new wheel/tyre.  However, when the adrenalin wore off, it appeared that driver had hurt his shoulder, so an early retirement was the order of the day.

With this being a repeat of the same sort of puncture that we had in Scotland, a bit of headscratching points towards the tyre valve being ripped out when cornering hard in ruts on gravel/rocks, particularly as the car is much more powerful than last season, is going through them faster, and is spinning up the wheels.  Soft, long-travel suspension doesn't make it easy to detect a puncture, unless it is a catastrophic blow-out, and the valve coming out leads to a slow initial puncture (hence perhaps the "it felt a bit odd") which then turns into a complete flat pretty quickly when subjected to sideways forces.  Using flush fit valves and welding a protective bead to the wheel rim around the valve area should at least rule that issue out for the next round.

We can moan about the course, but it was the same for everyone, and we were not unique in picking up a puncture or in rolling the car, and at least no major injuries or structural damage were sustained, just some cosmetic stuff on the car that will take a bit of time to put right and one hurting shoulder. 

At least the car is now fast and reliable, providing it is kept on the course.  The final round of the BORC is on 27/28 October, venue not yet known, but probably somewhere in Wales.

MG Mark

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« Reply #88 on: September 10, 2007, 02:33:20 pm »

Thanks for the report and good to hear that you both managed to remain relatively unhurt.
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« Reply #89 on: September 10, 2007, 06:39:03 pm »

Let me know if it's N Wales, and I'll make the trip again Mark.
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