Club Arnage

Just heard there is a split - more to see - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8108488.stm

Formula One Teams' Association to set up a rival F1 championship.

New series 2010 -

Smoke and mirrors. Anyone read old Luca's comments about Le Mans and Ferarri in the French papers at the weekend? Its just politics, normal service will be resumed shortly.

Si

I hope F1 continues. Imagine if they all raced at Le Mans, the ticket price would rocket and the campsites would be hospitality areas.

If it does happen,

1)  does that mean Max Mosley will be looking for a new job, of even signing on - will he get job seekers allowance ?

2) Bernie Ecclestone, will be sueing everyone, as he has lost his cash cow! - We already know that Bernie Ecclestone has threatened to sue Ferrari if they try to leave F1.

It could be fun -

or as Dr S - just lots and lots of smoke! and no fire.

Berine may be a big fish, but the Agnelli family are bigger and have more money.


As Dr s has already said, its all bravado at the moment, however unless someone backs down there is a danger it will implode as happened in the USA and the shambles that resulted in 2 rival series did not resolve its self for many years leaving both weakened to the point of collapse.

The similarities between this and the USA are not that great.

The main difference is that all the established teams and drivers are with FOTA. There are plenty of circuits that Bernie has dropped who will be happy to support the new series, and I supsect those that are still signed with the FIA will be looking for a way out once they see the diminshed appeal for fans of the FIA sanctioned series.

It would not surprise me if the 'new' teams that Max and Bernie did not select for 2010 (i.e. Pordrive and Lola, et al) don't soon side with FOTA. And bingo, a ready made championship, just without the title of F1, but more importantly not having to support the commercial rights holder's enormous debt.

Simple really........ :)

So it will be back to Silverstone next year?

The problem is that its the FIA that provides the lience for tracks to operate.

If you piss them off and support the FOTA series then you track lience could become harder to get in the future, you may even have to install a couple of chicanes on your main straight!

Interesting comment on Lola.

Seem to remember Martin Birrane spending quite a bit of time on RLM on Sunday discussing his surprise at receiving a letter on Friday from the FIA stating "thanks, but no thanks".  That's with him having a car almost ready to go.

Then on Tuesday he had a meeting with the FIA, followed by a withdrawal of his bid on Wednesday.

I think that Lola/AM [?] are siding with FOTA.

The main difference between what happened in the US is that the sum of the players were greater than the series- not so in F1. It won't happen.

Anyway, word on the street has it that a certain Maximillion Mosely will be holding a press conference at 11am next Wednesday to announce his intention to step down as el presidente in October 2009 when his current contract expires.

Who next? Big Ron??

You heard it here first ;)

Si

I think its a bit more than that.  This budget thing has hit a nerve, and the solution is to cut the dwarf out of the budget, and get rid of Spanky whilst they're at it.

It will probably end in an amicable settlement, as the FIA can't afford to lose F1, but they can afford to lose Max and Bernie, and if thats the price they have to pay, this is going to be fun.

I don't think that Bernie will be going for a while yet- far too shrewd to allow himself to be stopped at the door. But Max will be going very soon. The teams have been subject to his dictatorship for too long- this is what troubles them, not the money side of things. When Max goes the teams will have an opportunity to have more say in what goes on- its what they want. By the end of summer all will be hunky dory again.

Don't forget that Bernies power will be weakened by the departure of Max, this plays right into the hands of the teams.

Si

So Si, what you are saying is F1 is looking for a scape goat!, and Max looks like he could be carrying the can.

or when the sh*t hit's the fan, Max has been posistioned to stand next to it! (or even better - in front of it!!!)

Max's days were always numbered the day he got caught in that hotel room. It was just a matter of time until he became useful again in the eyes of the FIA- his departure will be the glue that holds the show together.
 The teams have for once got things right. When Max was weakened last year they took the opportunity to strike. Max's response has been to allow the diffuser row to rumble on in an effort to set the teams against each other and weaken FOTA's unity. Some team bosses almost fell for it and could not see beyond the end of their noses, thankfully the majority kept schtum and continued with the master plan.

Si

Max is not rumoured to be stepping down until later this year, and even that is not a promise.

So what do the FOTA and new teams do in the meantime?

The regs and rules need to be confirmed soon so that cars for 2010 can start to be planned. With Max still incharge and the current blockage on a possible solution, next year's field of cars is going to be a right mis-match.

 ???

Thats where next week's press conference comes in, it will put an end to the uncertainty. By announcing his abdication in October everyone can move on and the championship can be saved.

Si

Wouldn't it be great to find Big Ron holding a smoking gun in a few months time? ;D

I have just had the vision of Big Ron sat in a large revolving chair inside McLarens Technology Centre laughing like a maniac whilst stoking a big white cat.  ;D

Perfect!...

'No Mr Brawn, I expect you to crash....'

I believe that stoking cats is on the Pope's proscribed list!

And I'm glad to hear that Ian, I mean, have you ever tried to get a shovelful of coal up a cats arse? No? Just me then eh?

Thats not a big white cat, its Bernies scalp.

                           (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_01/bernieMS0408_228x333.jpg)

"What time does Ron want his cat back by?"    ;D

We've seen this all before, I guess Nordic & I are probaby the only ones who remember the FIA-FOCA wars of 80/81.  Back then FOCA led by one Bernie Ecclestone threatened the FIA & JMB with a breakaway series.  The Concorde agreement was signed and that was the end of the uprising.  Its all been seen before.  As for what happened in the US?  The only reason the IRL ever survived its first season was because CART didn't show up at the IRL's first race and crush their insignificant little rebellion  ;D  CART had the teams and star names, the IRL had the Indianapolis 500.  Both lost.
Fax

I thought this thread would stir you into action Fax!

I remember the FIA-FOCA situation too.  To be honest I can't be bothered to follow the self-indulgent machinations of the rulers of F1 anymore.  I used to love it but it bores me to death now.

A pity because I felt that this year and last there were some glimmers of a revival in the racing itself.  I suppose we should have expected nothing less than that the powers-that-be would come along and put themselves back in centre stage rather than (what's left of) their sport.

Ah well, it is less than a year now until the next Le Mans 24 hours. I'll just have to hang on for that.

I guess the key differance between the FOCA - FIA war of the early 80's and now is that then the key manufactures supported the FIA.

This time its them thats holding the knife, not sure how the FIA is financed, but I suspect the carmakers have some role in it and could therefore have the ace up their sleave to some extent.

Having said that, I would not underestimate the power that Bernie can weald, he has shown great fortutude in the past to protect his investment and would be unlikely to let it slip through his fingers now.

I agree oldtimer, my interest was being rekindled to some extent, but not sure i can be arsed now.

Au contraire dear Fax. As you once told me, I'm older than your father. I think you'll find there are plenty of members here with longer memories than you.  ;)

some good Q&A bits here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8567350

You know what? I couldn't give a sh*t!

Here's 10P (http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:rXXB8L8eBWjX8M:http://www.exhibitrae.co.uk/Contact/images/paypal-logo.jpg)

Go phone someone who cares.

 It's a money making machine now, not a sport. Pity, really because it looked like it might be turning a corner and getting interesting on track with a shake up of the 'old order', and now they have to go and interfere to such an extent that it's going to pull itself to pieces in another bloody courtroom.

Surely if F1 gets too expensive people will leave, or they'll do the best they can with whatever funds they have, it ought to find its own equilibrium without interference.

I'll bet Bernard the evil midget'll still come away with wheelbarrows of cash no matter what happens.

Maybe Mosely's going to retire to spend more time with <insert libellous suggestion here>

Greed! Bernie is about to choke on his own gold. Just like that geezer in the bible who's name eludes me. I think he had a red hot poker shoved up his arse too, or was that Max?

Classic! (http://forum.drinkingforholland.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)

Another twist..... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76337

Mosley unlikely to step down amid crisis

By Jonathan Noble Friday, June 19th 2009, 17:51 GMT

FIA president Max Mosley thinks it more likely that he will stand for re-election in October if the controversy engulfing Formula 1 is not settled in time.

Although there has been widespread speculation in the paddock that teams are keen for him to follow through on his original intention to stand down at the end of his current term, Mosley said on Friday that the threat of a breakaway was actually having the opposite effect in forcing him to stay.

"I don't want to go on too long, but the difficulty they are putting me in is that even if I wanted to stop this October, they are making it very difficult for me to do so," said Mosley in an interview with the BBC.

"So actually everything they are doing is counterproductive because the people in the FIA are saying we have all this trouble, we are being attacked and you must stay.

"Whereas if we had peace and I said I would actually like to stop in October, then they are very nice. They all say they want me to stay, but they wouldn't really mind and someone else would come along."

Mosley stated that if him standing down would ensure peace then he would be more than happy to walk away.

"Absolutely," he said. "[But] everybody knows it wouldn't be [peace], because the next person they [FOTA] would want his head, and the person after that, his head, until they got what they wanted which is the power to run the sport away from the FIA. It would be exactly the same with Bernie..."

He added: "What you cannot do is walk away from an organisation in the middle of a crisis."

Mosley also dismissed claims that his dictatorial approach in the FIA was a cause for concern.

"The idea that it is me is a complete myth," he explained. "I am the figurehead because I happen to be the president, but I cannot move without the authority of all these different countries. We have 120 different countries and each is represented by the head of motorsport in that country. It is a huge organisation, so the idea that it is somehow me, that is really not the issue.

"What it is is that they want to take over the governance of the sport from the FIA and run it themselves. They want to take over the money from Bernie and have that for themselves.

"Well, the first thing they have to do is get rid of me, but then whoever replaced me would be exactly the same - he would defend the interests of the FIA because the championship belongs to them. So, unless they found somebody who was prepared to let it all go, it wouldn't work. If I dropped dead tomorrow there would be somebody taking exactly the same position."

More smoke....? or a man on the defensive? or on the attack?

From here....... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76355

Mosley not expecting quick resolution

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, June 20th 2009, 09:15 GMT

FIA president Max Mosley believes the row between the governing body and teams will not get resolved for some time, after blaming a power grab by Flavio Briatore for fuelling the current controversy.

With motor racing's governing body poised to begin legal action next week against Ferrari and the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) over their bid to launch a breakaway series, Mosley sees no quick solution to the row.

However, he thinks there is no doubt that the teams will capitulate and sign up to F1 eventually.

"What will happen now is that this discussion will continue for a while and then at some point we will find that when it starts to get important to know what is actually happening, which won't be for some time, we will find some of the teams, the FOTA teams, will then come into the championship," he said in an interview with the BBC.

"Other teams will already be there. And how long that will take is very difficult to predict because people take entrenched positions and so on, but nobody wants this."

Mosley believes the stand off between teams and the FIA has been caused in part by the desire of individuals to take control of running the sport - and he singles out Renault boss Briatore in particular.

"It is not greed, it is more about power," he said about the row. "There are one or two individuals... well there is one individual who fancies himself as the Bernie [Ecclestone]. Whether he could do the job or not I don't know."

When asked to identify the individual he was referring to, Mosley said: "I think Flavio Briatore sees himself as the Bernie. He is fully entitled to that view, but I think Bernie would feel if he wants my business, or CVC's business, then he should come and buy it, he can't just take it.

"As far as the governing body is concerned, I don't know whether any of them actually want to make the rules, because they can never agree on the rules. And when they do agree on them, they disagree on what they mean.

"The famous double diffuser was entirely drawn up by the teams and then we had to settle who was right in their interpretation of the rules which they had drawn up. There is not a lot of future in that. This is what it is all about – certain people would like certain positions and you can understand that, but there are correct and incorrect ways to get it."

Speaking about his feelings on the legal action that the FIA is about to launch against teams, Mosley said: "The thing is we have got very good legal advice and it is very strong and very clear, so we are very confident."

Yeah, right. Having been born the year before Ferrari won their first Le Mans (Luigi Chinetti - Lord Selsdon, and the car is sitting in the refurbished museum sans wheels, which are getting their own spiffing-up) I think I probably do recall all that stuff, not least because Motor Sport became very boring with its endless tirades against JMB, and simply lost me as a regular reader. In those days, having an Englishman with Team Principal experience to replace the outrageous Frenchman seemed the ideal solution. Again - yeah, right!

Am I the only one finding this all quite exciting. I'm enjoying the long known but rarely surfaced infighting, politics and backstabbing rising into the conciousness of the previously unnaware viewing public.
Who by the way would be the most likely canditate to be the next FIA president, An Italian or a Frenchman with Italian leanings perchance?
I bet the BBC are slightly nervous too.

I find it interesting too.

From my armchair.......firstly, I see Max + FIA ignoring the teams......those teams that give them a sport to promote in the first place. And, secondly Bernie + CVC creaming too much money that should be going to those who are attempting to creat the sport......the teams.

It is almost as if Max + FIA and Bernie + CVC expect the teams and fans to pay for everything and receive nothing back in return.

I guess we just wait and see how it all falls out.

At least the on track antics have been interesting so far. Despite Brawn + Button being dominant, the spark comes from watching to see how long they can maintain it for and who of the rest is good enough to catch them and take some of the glory.

Yes. there are some of you out there who are geezers like me, did a good job of drawing you lot out too.. ;)
Nordic made a good point, in 1980 it was Ferrari, Renault and Alfa who were in the FIA corner, with Williams, Lotus, Brabham, etc. leading the breakaway.  I really suspect FOTA has Mosely by the balls, the prospect of a World Championship contested by USF1 and Campos GP hardly makes the heart flutter.
I'm looking on the bright side, perhaps we can finally get away from GP's in stupid places, on stupid circuits, and get back to some more traditonal venues.
Fax

Sadly this is a very deep trough that all the pigs need to be able to swill at. Advertising budgets are very accurately targeted, and coming back to more traditional venues may fail to attract the sponsorship necessary to keep F1 in the luxury to which it has become accustomed. This is why, for example, France struggles to keep a GP, and, so I'm told, loses many of its best soccer players to overseas clubs - there isn't the money in the commerce of the country. On the other hand, emerging nations seek the prestige and are happy to pay Ecclebum for the privilege of his circus calling once a year. At the other end of the scale, the deplorable British motor racing establishment, with their love of boring Silverstone, charge silly money yet cannot accommodate nearly enough fans - as distinct from corporate guests, of course.

While for two successive seasons F1 has been lucky enough to find novelty winners, there is a great deal about it that is fundamentally rotten, and that isn't about to go away as a result of this spat.

I've read all your posts and I still don't give a flying fart about the F1 circus. Please God don't let our beloved Le Mans go that way although I sense that happening.....

I doubt LM will go the way of F1.

There is simply not enough money in it, TV money and the exposure it brings to sponsors is the key money maker for the F1 teams and therefore Bernie.

F1 can do it as the races can be neatly packaged into 90 minutes (like a football match) and celebrity drivers emerge that are lauded then discarded.

Long distance races will never be popular TV fodder for the masses.

Did anyone else catch the interview with Mad max when he called all the team owners looneys! proof if needed he really has lost the plot. I guess the strain of odd sexual practices coming to light and the sucide of a son would be enough to unhinge most people.

Bernie seemed pretty upbeat seeing as the golden goose he created is in danger of being done in, I suspect he know what the outcome will be, ie he is the king maker.


Not sure how old you think I am Fax! the only thing I recall about the 1981 FOCA - FISA war was my grandad telling me about it.  ;)

I think you are right. Max has started to buckle today. His comment about Flav trying to get Bernies job is just desperate. Flav and Bernie are the best of buddies. He really has lost the plot if he thinks he can hang on. The FIA World Council meet on Thursday. They have two options- one is to take on FOTA head on with very costly legal action and plenty of mud slinging from all sides, further damaging the sports image in times where the sums of money involved look increasingly vulgar in a cash strapped world. Or they can stick Max's head on a big stick and hold it up above the battlements as a White flag and offer to work with the teams in the future (if they do is a different matter). The championship is saved, the teams lower their guard and they are rid of a slightly embarrasing president and someone on that council gets a bigger office and a pay rise.
What option would you go for??

My insider still says that Max will call a press conference on Wednesday morning to call it a day. If he doesn't he will have lost his dignity by the end of next week as well as his job!

Si

Perish the thought...

Brawn and Whitmarsh have turned the thumbscrews again....Isn't this fun? :)

From Autosport...

   
 
 
FOTA beginning work on new series

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, June 21st 2009, 10:52 GMT


The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) will begin formal preparations for its new championship as early as next week, after Ross Brawn made it clear the teams were focusing flat out on their breakaway series rather than finding a compromise deal with the FIA.

Although FIA president Max Mosley believes that teams will eventually capitulate and sign up to join F1 next year, Brawn is adamant that FOTA is only thinking of going its own way right now.

When asked if he believed that a compromise would be put together that resulted in teams signings up to F1, Brawn said: "No that won't happen, I mean the decision has been made by FOTA. FOTA now has to press ahead with its ideas and plans. We can't wait until January and decide which way it is going to go. As each day passes, and each week passes then the options for reconciliation will reduce."

Amid suggestions that television companies and promoters have already been contacted regarding the breakaway championship, Brawn says that work on framing the technical regulations for the championship will begin in earnest next week.

"Those meetings start next week and we will arrive at a technical specification that we think offers the best racing and is cost effective," he explained. "Things start next week and we will start to put some more detail to the proposal."

Despite the stand-off between teams and the FIA, Brawn confirmed that ironically motor racing's governing body would likely be the regulator of the new series.

"You would need a regulatory body," he said. "In fact ironically I think the agreement with the European Commission is that the FIA have to offer to do that to any competitive series that wants to set up, so the FIA have to offer to be at least the regulatory body.

"They may not be the body that sets the rules, they can be determined by some other mechanism. But if you want, the FIA can run the series for you. They can provide the stewards, the scruntineers and things of that nature. So that's available if FOTA wanted to take it up."

Although Brawn's stance appears to point towards there being no plans to get the FIA back around the table to discuss saving F1 next year, other team bosses are more conciliatory in their approach.

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh said it would be foolish of teams not to accept an offer they are happy with if it was put forward by the FIA.

"I don't think FOTA rules anything out," said Whitmarsh. "At the moment, as we said earlier in the week, the team were presented with a deadline and, faced with that deadline, the teams did request that there was more time to find a solution.

"So within that deadline the decision was taken, but I think the teams are open to discuss with anybody how we go motor racing next year."
 
 

Shhhh - don't tell anyone , but watching the race on TV.

Noticed there is a lot of gaps on advertising boards around the circuit.

Usually a lot more companies with there name out there.

Well done Silverstone! A classic F1 procession, with nothing to watch except frustrated former champions fighting it out for minor places in cars that wouldn't deliver. You could build a more exciting circuit in any supermarket car park! I sincerely hope that whether the F1 circus carries on as now, or moves to new management, that we are never again treated to such a boring spectacle as Silverstone so often provides, and certainly has today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8116756.stm

Ok hear we go again. Sound familiar?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8119983.stm

Max is clearly mad.

Handbags at dawn is such fun, isn't it?

indeed, but one rather thinks that we are in paper tiger territory now after he "shot his bolt" so to speak, augmented by the Chairman of FOTA having a very distinct connection with Modena...

MG Mark

Interesting reading. Look at this and see how open the voting for the FIA presidency is. Looks like Max will be with us for ever ::) ::)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76759 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76759)

How strange that that should have been implemented by Max. The whole thing really stinks and is probably about as undemocratic as the Chinese voting system.

This is the same Max who has been banging on about the democracy of the FIA council throughout his denials that he is running a dictatorship. It really does stink.

Vatanen would get my vote. A true gentleman who has never lost the common touch. I have had the pleasure of meeting him several times and you could not wish to meet a nicer bloke.

Unfortunately Dr S. Your vote doesn't count. But I bet the members of the Bulgarian FIA (and the sutchlike) will be falling at Max and Bernie's feet especially as there may not be a japanese GP next year. they can tempt Thailand and others with the prize of a GP.

Mad Max will not step down. He's a typical defence lawyer that says one thing and does the 'ropydope' by going the other way. Much like his father - a TURN COAT.

By then all the teams will have 'signed up'.

I look forward to a mutiny, it may ruin the F1 formula but what the hell, I love Le Mans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO8TLBn7z1k

Pretty much sums it up!! ;D

 ;D

Excellent!

MG Mark

Todt is to stand against Vatanen for the FIA job, he is the replacement favored by Mad Max which must put him in pole postion amongst the boot lickers.

Vatanen on the other hand comes without any history of dodgy deals (apart from being an MEP), is well liked and Finnish, so therefore a top bloke, and therefore unlikely to get the job.

You can keep up with Ross Brawn's thoughts all things F1 on his "twitter" site ;D

http://twitter.com/rossbrawn

I'll follow that - looks like a laugh!

I think the 'real' RB could probably spell!

>Martini...

Hmmmm. Ferrari bias set to continue perhaps?