Club Arnage

http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=others/05/09/01/AUTO_Mansell.html

Woooo - childhood heros, 200 mph cars, legendary tracks........!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

Hope its wider than the mclaren though nige!!

Wonder how long it will take for the pissing & moaning to start?  It was a herioc effort by myself, no thanks to the team, etc, etc.  What a pretentious asshole!
This whole concept is f**k*ng stupid.  A bunch of middle aged former stars who see an opportunity to make a quick buck in exhibition racing.  Who the hell was the huckster who came up with this idea anyway?  Legendary drivers on lengendary tracks my ass!  Most of the legendary tracks were bulldozed or butchered beyond all recognition a hell of a long time ago.
Fax

Know a lad who used to work for the Williams test team when they were developing the active suspension. Said the single most impressive thing Mansell did was to take the passive car out at the the end of active testing and made it go faster, simply because he hated active suspension, because of bad times at Lotus when the active suspension used to collapse regulaly.
An awsome driver, if only he didn't open his mouth :-\

Nige was always good value, just couldn’t help himself, just coming to the end of the British GP in 92, he was about 1.30 min ahead and he broke the lap record!!! not a thinking mans strategy, but fantastic for the crowd, Brad and I were at club corner and the place went wild. Say what you will about Nige's whingeing - and your right, but he was good for the sport.
This series could be quite entertaining, would certanly go to Brands to watch it (always regretted not getting to an F1 race there).

The guy was a proper racer, remember Monaco.  Love it !

Jem

The guys was a complete w**k*r!  Remember Monaco?  I remember Monaco '84 when he through away a huge lead because he didn't enough sense to stay off the painted lines in the wet, any ordinary guy on a motorbike knows enough to do that.  He won a world title because he was driving a Williams that was so head & shoulders above the rest it made a journeyman like Ricardo Patrese look like a world beater.  Ask Patrick Head what he thinks of The Nige, by all accounts Patrick (and the rest of the crew) despised him and didn't want him back when he returned in 1991.   Incredibly sloppy driver, watched him in final qualifying at Mid-Ohio in 1993 and it was butt-ugly, his lines were all over the place, his braking points were inconsistant and he over-drove the car worse than anyone I've ever witnessed. None of this is even going into him as a person!  The biggest f**k*ng cry-baby the sporting world has ever known.  Nelson Piquet used to get inside his head and mess with him so much it was hilarious.
Fax

Whinger, yes
Tosser, yes
Hero, not mine
Annoying, yes very
fast, yes on his day he could be

187 races in F1 - 31 wins-32 poles-25 fastest laps.
WDC Runner up 3 times.
world champ once.

His final qualifying at mid Ohio may have been butt ugly, but it got him pole I think.

I dont really see what you're getting at here... and in fact this comment makes me think you have no idea about motorsports at all....

Ayrton Senna (undoubtebly and unarguably one of the best drivers ever) drove a car into the wall a lap from the end of the monaco grand prix, in the lead.  Does that make him a terrible driver?

Is motorsports about consistency and doing everything like a robot? or is it ACTUALLY about pushing the boundaries, testing to see the effect something has on your lap time, trying "the wrong line" because maybe sometimes it's the right line?

The facts speak for themselves - a world champion, a racer who everyone loved to watch, and two further championships cruelly denied to him by two twists of fate.

Nigel Mansell wore his heart on his sleeve - none of this "oh the race win is all down to the team etc" because it wasn't in those days.  Sure the team make the car and set it up etc, but do they actually go out and drive it?  Do they put SO much effort in that they collapse after the race in the way that Nigel did at Brands in 86? No - because F1 in mansells day was a different game - they didnt have all the computer gadgetery that the teams have now - they couldnt effectively drive the car around from the garage like they do now - it was ALL about the driver - why should he share the credit for something HE's done?

Nigel Mansell is one of my childhood heros. Not because he was the best driver in the world ( and lets think about this - the record books in 92 say he was) but because he drove with the heart of a lion - not always in the best cars.  When he finished the British Grand Prix in 1992 he was swamped by 160,000 rejoicing Brits - he won that race by a clear 2 minutes in a car that was TOPS 0.5 of a second faster than anything else on track that day......do the maths.

I would pay good money to see Nigel Mansell don his helmet again, just to go back to a time when drivers were winning races on thier own, to avoid the pretentious shite that F1. and all forms of american motorsports have become and remember when racing drivers were racing drivers  - not pieces of ballast in a giant remote controlled car.

As for legendary tracks - which part of Brands Hatch has been bulldozed?

I might be wrong, but I do seem to remember that our Nige was driving the Williams when it did have all the gucci kit and gizmos - traction control etc - even active suspension!

MG Mark

Bulldozed Brands?  This is sacred territory for the KKOC.  It was all still there in April.

Anyway, on a good day Mansell could just pull out that little bit extra, the way Shoemaker can, and others can't, but on a bad day he just got grumpy and was cr@p.  Thankfully at his peak he didn't have many bad days.  Remember Silverstone, when the engine melted on the lap on honour.

And one of the best cartoons I've ever seen was about him being too big for the cockpit of that awful McLaren, with one of the mechanics commenting "There'll be plenty of room if you try it without the wallet"

But even all those elements were nowhere near the technology we see today.

I watched a video from 1991 earlier, where the mechanics were working on "Super computers" of the day - they were the size of the rear end of the garage, and probably contained a similar amount of processing power as a mid spec modern day laptop.

So whilst there were gadgets and gizmos on the FW14, these days that sort of technology would fit on a chip the size of a postage stamp.

but just two years before, and remember mansell went to drive indycars in 93, so the majority of his career was before this, the cars were ENTIRELY controlled by the driver, complete with gear shifter! So naturally he COULD take the creedit and the critisim for good and bad races. because when it came down to it - it was all down to him.

Nobodies trying to make excuses for Nigel’s tantrums or his mistakes. The fact is that he made many of them through total commitment; the opposite scenario would be Michael Andretti, given decent machinery but just didn’t have the will.
I saw Alain Prost (the professor because of his clinical precision) spin on the Priory straight for no other reason than putting a wheel on the grass.
I met Aire Luyendyk at a book signing in Minneapolis in 93 and he was begrudgingly in awe of Nigel’s fearless driving - Nige came out with a fairly good result as I recall. Not being funny, but what is the ratio of F1 to Indy successes as opposed to Indy to F1 transition successes?  

Brad,
First off, I will gladly wager that I know a helluva alot more about the sport than you, starting with the fact the Senna stuffed the McLaren into the wall at Portier well before the last lap of the '88 Monaco GP!  Who the hell are you kidding? Mansell collapsed after every race!  The guy was the biggest f**k*ng drama queen in the sport. When your leading by a street on a wet track after twenty or so laps (especially a street circut), its not the time to go looking for a better line, thats just f**k*ng stupid!  Great, he won in Britain a few times and drove some fine individual races but at the end of the day he's also the clown who stalled his car on the last lap of the '91 Canadian GP becuase he was too busy waving to the crowd to keep the revs up and killed the engine.  He won alot of GP's and has one title to show for it, the year he was in a vastly superior car to anything else on the grid.
And by the way Brad, the team is everything!  I judge a driver by way he is remembered by his team members (Mechanics, Engineers, etc.) and Nigel is universally disliked by everyone who has ever worked with him, that says it all.
Fax

Fax is right; Mansell was an absolute utter ar*ehole.

Fax is also wrong. He was a simply superb driver, certainly the bravest of his time. His record speaks for itself. Anyone who managed to pull off THAT overtaking manouvre on Piquet at Silverstone has my undying respect and it's what I used to love about the sport. Sure, he wasn't perfect. But then again he didn't manage to kill himself like Clarke, Senna or Gilles. Miserable Ayton was a sulk, a bad sport, moaned as bad as Nige and was a cheat; but I still think he was an amazing driver.

Sorry Fax, but to judge a driver simply on the criteria of what the team members think of him is frankly ridiculous. Smiling Mauricio Guggelmin was loved by everyone. He was a pretty mediocre driver though. Nuff said!

So was his Newman Haas Car the following year head and shoulders above the rest?

Or did he go into his first season in Indy Cars and obliterate the competition by being the fastest, bravest driver on the grid?

Or is it actually just a case that going around and around in a big circle isn't actually that difficult?

It has to be one of these, because you will remember that he won that championship in his rookie year.

As for knowing more about the sport than me....well at 23 years old, I should hope someone as old as you should know your history a bit better than me.  As I was 7 years old when Senna stuffed the mclaren, I should really expect my memory to be a little hazy. 

That said, I'm fairly confident that if you were a Brit, you'd be a Wolverhampton Wanderers supporter.  This is based on the fact that you cannot take anything on face value and simply HAVE to criticise someone else's performance.  The facts however speak for themselves. Mansell was an F1 World Champion (you dont win that without the best car, ever!) he was then IndyCar Champ the following year (easier to do with a rubbish car as its only roundy roundy).  How anyone can doubt his natural talent is beyond me!

For sure he's a whinger, but by the same token, any professional, who's team isnt performing, in ANY industry is a whinger...... Equally - any professional who's team performs beyond themselves, will always say that it was their influence which made it like that.

 

Mansell in the Ferrari 641 overtaking Berger in a Mclaren on the outside around Peratalda at Mexico 1990.
Brave and brave - did winge though.

Going round in a circle isn't difficult.  Doing it at 220mph is.  And without a couple of years practice is more so.  So yes, Dan Wheldon has my vote, but is he a wingeing Brummy?

See Schumcher/Benetton 1995.

Brad, I really have no idea where your going with the personal attacks, I'm a better man than that and won't waste my time in a juvenile pissing match.  This is a bebate over the pros & cons Of Mr. Nigel Mansell.  My point all along has been that yes, Mansell was brave, drove some terrific races and made some ghastly f**k-ups.  Won the World title and the CART title. BUT!....Behaved like a complete asshole the whole time!  Its not just about winning, but how you win as well. That might be a bit old school but it still matters to me. When he won it was a heroic effort on his behalf, when he lost the team let him down.  That was the Mansell I remember.  For the most part he treated the people around him like sh*t.  And no, its like that in every sport or with every athlete, a great many win with dignity and grace, Mansell never managed that.  Agreed about Senna,  Andy, he was sh*t of a person but had mesmeric skills, shame he acted like a jerk on the track.  Once again its not just about winning.  But disagree about the opinons of team personal, actually they are the best qualified to tell you a drivers true character. If the guys a charger and respected by his peers and team, thats enough for me, sheer statistics have never impressed me.
Fax

Yes but that puts another dimension into the equation - Ross Brawn, Schumacher would not have won as many world championships (impossible to say how many +or-) without him, he is the best, most devious tactician the sport has ever had.

I wouldn't rush to see Mansell racing anywhere, I believe that the man had bollox made of steel but a brain made of the same material.

His pursuit reminds me a bit of McRae in the rally scene just didn't know when to back off as he had the thing wrapped up.

As to say that the winning is about him and not the team, that is total sh*t any driver worth his salt looks on each win as a team triumph.

I'm sorry Ian but I don't think the strong comments have been only one sided! I think most people on the forum know that Fax's knowledge of Motorsport is probably one of the highest amongst all of us. For Brad to accuse him of not knowing anything about motorsport at all is pretty condescending!

Unfortunately, I think we are back to the age old situation of email and forums being a cold form of communication and unless you personally know someone to know there turn of phrase and demeanour (and I can happily say that I have met John and he is a top chap, as are Brad and Ian!) then we shouldn't be passing comments about each other. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion!!

FWIW, I think the guy is an arrogant arsehole (Mansell that is!!). But then I also think you need a certain amount of arrogance to be good at anything you do! To put your life on the line at those speeds I guess you have to be supremely confident in your own abilities. I think most drivers would also be confident in their team's abilities too, which unfortunately was Mansell's major downfall as far as I am concerned. A bad workman.....................!!!

Would I have paid to go and see himn drive at his prime, you bet! Will I pay to see him drive now, No!

Let's hope Ian and Brad can make it to Sebring, or that John can make it over for Le Mans next year, then we can all shake hands over a nice glass of lemonade  :)  In the meantime, lets leave comments about fellow forum members out of it shall we!

After re reading the posts, you have a fair point Mark, personal comments will be amended, appologies. Fax, I am sure we will all have a drink and shakehands in the spirit that is LM.

However I can not agree to Mansell being effectivly degraded to sombody who was bad for the sport. We all know what a tw*t he could be (and frequently was), but the fact is that Nigel was a huge character in F1 and generated massive interest, and he was very entertaining. He was a people's hero as anybody who was at Silverstone in 92 will recall (and it was the biggest crowd ever at a british motor race), I don’t think there has ever been such total support for one driver (except maybe by the Tifosi for Ferrari). It is a shame that the poison dwarf has driven the sport so far into corporate wealth and responsibility that it is not about entertaining the fans and working class hero's any more, as we know.
There is a good comparison between McCray and Mansell, in 97 Brad did his work experience for Tony Jardine at Jardine PR  - they did the pr work for the Network Q rally (the old RAC) and he got tickets to the Silverstone stage, which included the 2 lane special stage. McCray was on a totally different plain to the rest, totally committed and very entertaining and again drew huge crowds. But again frequently overcooked it and didn’t finish and could be an arse, but the interest in WRC grew immensely.
 

I think much of this is about perspective.  No doubting his hero status with the British racing fans much the way Senna was in his native Brazil (or Japan for that matter).  But as I mentioned in another thread, when Nigel came over here to race Champ cars he didn't exactly endear himself to anyone.  US racing fans tend to have little patience with whiners and frankly, Nigel did a hell of alot of it.  Was good value to watch on the track though.  He would have been better served to let his driving do the talking for him and kept his pie hole shut.  We'll debate it over a cold beer at a race soon.
Fax

I was there that year - the year of "Mansell Mania" - as a race marshall, so post race I was in the paddock, and saw two drivers talking about their race -  Senna and Mansell.  Senna yet again did not finish the race, but comended the team on their succesful ability over his.  Mansell simply stated "I was better than good".   
So we walked away from him and his soapbox (Mansells halo was warming my beer), to scoff steaks and drink cold beer at some other teams shack.  Then got to listen to the F1 band...   excellent race, amazing crowd , pig header winner.