Club Arnage

So JV has got the boot from F1 and has stated in the past that LM was a possibility.  So therefore Monsieur Peugeot, give him a ring and ask him to lead your new oil burning team at Le Mans next year.  Who else would we like to see given a real chance at LM glory?
Old |Git

yup.. see link on page 2 with who we think he should drive for... ;D

I would still like to see Martin Brundell have a serious attempt to win.
He has helped develop some descent cars over the years.

TWR cats

Nissan - 1997.   4 cars in the top 10 in 1998 probably a result of his input

Loved the Toyota's. Nikarno was catching the eventual winning Beemer until he got a puncture with about 40 minutes to go.

He had quite an input into the Bentley's so I think he deserves another crack at it, and would probably be grateful for a weekend away from "The Cock"

Johny Herbert, give him a drive a great crowd pleaser and always put on a good show.

Bring bak the old gits I say

agree totally ;D
brundle, did blundell have a crack also?, herbert and warwick.. team 'just for men'..

old age and treachery will over come youth and skill, as the saying goes 8)  be like wacky races ;D

Am I alone in being slightly bemused at how humble JV has become all of the sudden?  This was a guy who seemed genuinally a nice guy when he raced in the Atlantics over he in 93, had a nice chat with him in the Mid-Ohio paddock.  Same when he raced in CART, but then he has F1 success and turns into a complete self-important, a-hole.  Now all of the sudden he finds himself chucked out of the F1 community and he's suddenly Mr Nice Guy again?  I tend to agree with JV Sr.,  He's a spoiled, self absorbed little prick who's had eveything handed to him his whole life because of who his daddy was.
Fax

Come on now Fax ... don't sit on the fence, tell it like it is!

Like the new avatar Fagey!

just the mention of JV and it had to appear ;D.. notice the similarity ???

Just that I've seen him as a bit of a phoney.  Couldn't hold his father or uncle's underpants as a driver.  Very overrated, remember he was world champ in a car that was head & shoulders better than the rest.  I remember when he made it to F1 he sat around bashing Indycar racing, saying how he never stoop to doing anything less than F1 again...Funny how things workout ;)  As I said, always seemed a spoiled brat to me.  His father didn't leave Joanne and the kids much money when he checked out but she remarried a wealthy Italian and Jacques grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth from then on. Much like the Andretti kids, daddy's name put him in rides he didn't really earn.
Fax

Of course Brundle (1990 Jaguar) and Herbert (1991 Mazdaspeed) have both won the race. Although I think I am right in thinking that Brundle was swapped to the winning car when his charge expired in the middle of the night? I would like to see fast Eddie Irvine have another crack I remember him chasing to the wire one year when he took second place on the virtually the last corner of the last lap (1994?) in a Toyota 94 CV Great stuff;D

Yup, that was Irv the Swerve in 94, overtook the second placed Dauer Porsche into the Ford Chicane on the last lap. We were on the terraces at the far end of the pit lane watching it on the screen but you didn't need a scren to see the tyre smoke. If only we could have finishes like that now.

Yup, that was Irv the Swerve in 94, overtook the second placed Dauer Porsche into the Ford Chicane on the last lap. We were on the terraces at the far end of the pit lane watching it on the screen but you didn't need a scren to see the tyre smoke. If only we could have finishes like that now.

I was there too, but on the tower at the end of the pit lane (now demolished) couldn't see a thing until they went past but we knew he got bye by the reaction of the crowd on the tribs!! I still reckon we’ve more finishes like that to look forward to Bob.  ;D

I gather JV is doing a big demolition job on Schuey in this month's F1 mag, or somesuch. Or is that what we are referring to here?  ???

Oh Jesus! Does someone actually read F1 Magazine?
Bwaahaahhhh! ;D
Sorry for those suckers...fools and their money are easily parted. (Bernie thinks so ;))
Fax

Can you lend us ten bucks mate?  ;)

Personally, whilst JV might be a little on the self-obsessed side, I'm not sure he's as bad as you've painted him. I understand he was sometimes known to tell sponsors that he would not be making personal appearances etc, which to my mind is only a good thing. He was a pretty quick driver too, if not quite as reckless as his late great father. And since when was having your widowed mother marry a rich bloke a heinous crime? Personally I'm looking forward to his spat with MS, but I won't be paying F1 mag to read it, hopefully it'll be on the internat somewhere.

part of its on here

http://tinyurl.com/jqmnp

andy ;D

That is absolutely terrific! Hope he has more to say on the subject. JV has always been honest about such matters; love him opr loathe him you have to respect that.

Sorry Andy, loved the old fella but JV never deserved to make it as far as he did.  Nowhere in Italian F3 and wins three races in Japanese F3, but his school teacher/manager Craig Pollack realizing that the Villeneuve name would be gold in Formula Atlantic back in North America pitches the idea of him to Forsythe Green and Players so despite having modest results in F3 ends up with the highest financed, best team in the Atlantics.  Finshes behind teamate Claude Bourbonnais in the 93 Atlantic title but still gets promoted to the Champcar team.  Drove some fine races in Champcar (again for probably the best team at the time), but against who, Mike Andretti? An old Mario&Emmo? and a completely disinterested Mansell.  Won the 97 title but has been usless in anything other than the best equipment.  The BAR debacle was embarrasing and hasn't done squat since returning to the sport.  I always thought he was more intersted in being a celebrity than being a driver.  Always had some nice trophy pussy on his arm though.  A lot like even more usless Williams ex
DC
Fax

Many years ago I went to the first day of practice for the British GP.  My chum and I decided that rather than rush home we would stop for a drink and arrived at a country club somewhere (Whittlebury perhaps?).  As is usual in country club bars, there was the old chap at the end of the bar who, whilst having no real interest in the sport, was up for a chat.

He started with "Anything good up at the track today?"
"Hah, not really" says I, pushing my way through a small group of people to get to the bar. "Although there was a new guy who was driving the third McLaren in his first ever grand prix who was outstanding . . .brilliant . . . certainly someone to watch.  His name is Gilles Villeneuve".

At this point the Head Waiter walked into the bar and up to the small group who I had elbowed out of the way and were all of five feet from me.  "Excuse me Mr. Villeneuve, your table is ready".  Gilles shot me the smile and disappeared.  Should I have been proud or embarrassed? To this day I do not know.

The Old Git.

Sure, JV wasn't the fastest driver out there and he could be arrogant, but at least he had some style. Montoya too.

Most of the current bunch have been scrubbed so clean they gleam and moulded into corporate mouthpieces who talk like walking press releases. Look at Rosberg Junior. He might be quick like his Dad, but isn't he just a bit dull? F1 has been sanitised and homogenised far too much - DC wasn't even allowed to grow a beard when he was at Mclaren...

Bring back JV, bring back Montoya - bring back a few of the hard living, hard drinking, hard whoring heroes of the '70s to boot.

Or just say sod F1, lets watch some guys with real balls risk their necks at Le Mans instead!

Fax in my book anyone who becomes world champion deserves it regardless of what car they are in and that includes JV. And even Mansell, who was an utter tosser but a magician behind the wheel.

Being ahead on points is a hell of a lot of pressure to be under. How easy is it to blow it all by making silly unforced mistakes? Better driver's than JV have cracked, but the mark of a champ is nerves of steel. We are about to see what Alonso is really made of. My money says he fends off Schumacher in the run in.

Hmm Andy, does that include Master James? After all you've always given me a hard time for having been a fan of the seventies icon ;)
Agreed, he did well to win the title, no doubt about it.  When the opportunity presents itself you have to make the most of it, and he did, unlike his contemporaries DC and Eddie Irivine who dropped the ball time & again.  But since his title year almost a decade ago he's done absolutely nothing.  All of his success has come when he's had absolutely the best equipment on the grid, if not he shows no fire in the belly at all, unlike his father or uncle who fought like hell just as hard for fifteenth place as for first.  It always seemed to me, right or wrong, that he came back not because he missed racing, but because he missed the money and adulation of being a F1 driver.
Fax

Anybody who came up with the line "I remember when sex was safe and motor racing was dangerous" is OK in my book!

Fax the sport is littered with "one-hit-wonders", including I'm sorry to say, James, Jodi Schekter and quite a few more. I would also argue it's quite hard to find a world champion who didn't have absolutely the best equipment. Not Prost or Senna. Not your beloved James, and would he have won the title anyway if it wasn't for a certain crash at the 'Ring? Not Mario or Emo either, those Lotuses were amazing. Maybe Schumacher in 95, was the Benetton Ford really that much better than the Williams of Hill?

JV certainly wouldn't be the last person to stay in a sport after their sell-by date for the money. And I still think his comments on Schumacher are totally bang on the nail.

What about Rosberg senior in '82? Cossie powered Williams up against turbo opposition? Not the best car, but superb driving.

Well thought Radar, Keke did a amazing job in '82, but it was a year of of bindingly quick but horrendously unreliable Renaults and Brabham BMW's.  And of course one of the Ferrari drivers should have walked the title but for GV's death at Zolder, and Pironi was leading the championship by a street when his career ended in the rain at Hockenheim.  And in some ways Wattie and McLaren threw away that title as well.  But yes, Keke was brilliant.
Andy, I think even without Niki's accident James would have taken the '76 crown.  Niki missed two races after Germany but remember James also had his Brands Hatch win chucked out, got truly screwed by the Italians at Monza and lost several races mid-season while McLaren messed around with the oil cooler location on the M23 after the Spanish width fiasco.  One could argue that Mario won the 1978 title by developing the 79 into the car that it became.  Remember when it first appeared it was a dog!  Prost won the 86 title in a inferior car to the Williams but Nelson and Nigel took turns screwing each other out of points and of course the famous blown tyre in Adelaide sealed the deal.
Fax

I should add that I agree with him on Schumacher though.  I've always said that I think Senna and Schumacher are the two biggest a-holes the sport's ever known.  Call me disrespectful to the dead if you like but Senna was a 100%, fully qualified, first class jerk, and Schue-boy is right there with him.
Fax

I am sure they would both speak very highly of you Fax, If they had ever heard of you.

I would like to say that while Senna did not interview very well he was what you might call 'focused.' And he was my (and many others I suspect) ‘favourite enemy’ I do believe that he was the greatest racing driver I have ever seen, by a country mile. He was bold, brave, unorthodox - outstanding. The sport was diminished on the May 1st 1994 and it saddens me now to think what he could have achieved and how much I would have enjoyed watching him achieve it.

Goodness Fax you really do have a low opinion of Mr Senna.  What was it that made him such a jerk do you think?  Was it his skill, his daring, his success, his money, his fame, the adoration with which his fans viewed him, the generous charity work he did for his less fortunate compatriots or was it simply that he was clearly a more eloquent and intelligent individual than you?

I see another fight brewing.  ::) ::) ::)

Fax - got so carried away with responding to the nonesense written about Senna I forgot to question another of your 'facts'

I remember being at a very wet International Trophy Race (I think that was what it was called anyway) at Silverstone in March of 1978 - the competition debut of the Lotus 79.  I am pretty sure Mario stuck the car comfortably on pole.  He was absolutely waltzing away with the race before becoming a little careless in the rain...  It is true that the Type 79 was not ready for the start of the GP season, Mario gave the car its GP debut at the sixth race of the season in Belgium, qualifying on pole, 0.79s ahead of Reutemann’s Ferrari and handsomely winning the race.

Claiming that it was a dog when it first apppeared seems rather strong - although I do concede that Mario did play a significant role in its development.

Nah Doris, not going to be drawn into a pissing match.  Senna was arrogant, self obsessed and showed time & again a blatant disregard for the safety of his colleagues, the marshals who line the track and those in the pitlane.  He corrupted the racers ethic with his deliberate swerves and collisions with opponents who dared to have the audacity to be in front him or attempt to overtake him.  Also his press conferences were full of the most over the top dribble I've ever heard come out of a athletes mouth, bleating on about his beliefs and virtues, the non-stop paranoia about how the FIA was out to get him.  The guy clearly took himself way too seriously,  he forgot he was nothing more than a  driver of racing cars, not a head of state.  Regarding the Lotus 79, when it first tested over the winter of 77/78 at Ricard it was very difficult to drive, the original ground effect tunnels had the center of pressure way too far forward, and the Lotus box never ceased to be problematic.  That's why I said Mario developed it into the winner it became, by the time of the International Trophy it had a hell of alot of development miles on it from both Mario & Ronnie.  I was quoting Mario himself who called it a dog when it was first tested.
Fax

I flew to the States last year specifically to discuss these points with Fax. Here's us shooting the sh-it on all manner of motor racing topics. You may recognise this as the famous Turn 10 at Sebring (thanks Steve).

(http://static.flickr.com/83/223850260_71e374accf.jpg)

Anyway, the one thing we did agree on is that Senna was a total tosser. Jeezus H Christ in a McLaren, I hated that man from the very second he showed up on the scene in F1! I simply cannot understand the current hero worship of such an appalling sportsman. He's so similar to Schumacher it's ridiculous and thus I would contend that a lot of what JV says of Schumacher could equally be applied to Senna. The tragedy is that these two people are/were so exceptionally gifted behind the wheel that it makes their disgraceful behaviour on the track all the more nauseating.

When Senna was unfortunately killed on that awful weekend, I can honestly say I was more upset at the passing of Roland the Rat and the terrible subsequent injury the Karl Wendlinger on the basis that I'd seen them race at Le Mans.

In summary, yes I agree that lap at Donny was one of the finest ever, and yes I appreciated his committment to the cause and his sheer God-given talent, but everyone must surely agree that he was the most graceless nerk ever to set foot into a racing car.


<Andy, Webshots seems to be a bit against cross-hosting of photos, so I've uploaded my original photo to Flickr and linked to it as above - no little red cross now - Steve>

Ah yes, dusk at Turn 10 at Sebring, some superb company, cold beverages, and lively conversation about the sport we love....Dosen't get any better than that :D
Fax

What did it for me, with Senna, was when he went and had a whole range of hair colouring products named after him. I suppose he pre-empted MS on that one, but in my opinion he jumped the gun, that's no way for a mans man to behave. And it's a strange choice of endorsement don't you think?, I can't ever recall seeing the top of a racing drivers head, after a race the cap replaces the helmet quicker than a teenager covering up coming out of the shower on a dodgy campsite.
I've got to say though, I thought he was a graceless sod too, along with Mansell and Prost I never understood how a race winner could behave so miserably in the post race interviews, you'd think they'd just seen their arses never mind won a GP. And who can forget Rodriguez Timotei?
Funnily enough I had a friend who knew Senna quite well, and I recall having a conversation, expressing similar opinions about Senna that are to be found in this thread, over a couple of beers in the local. He couldn't disagree with a lot of what I said, but insisted that without a camera/microphone/media type in front of him, he really was a nice guy. - Very shy, but always polite and no sign of an ego. Maybe he was schizo...
What planet is JV on for Cliffsake? To insist that people will forget about MS is a bit like saying sex will never catch on. How many WC titles has he won now, 7? 25? I dunno, but how could a sport forget it's most successful competitor? Like him or not, and I don't, he'll be remembered for a long long time, and when anyone says 'F1 Champion' the name Schumacher will pop into your head the same way as Brazil and World Cup. 
H
PS - has anyone noticed all the dead badgers on the road recently? I don't know what's going on, but every time I pass one I always try to pull over and check out just exactly how rough its ar*ehole really is...

Fax, Mr Zarse, I can see that we are never going to agree on this so lets ‘agree to disagree.’ However I would in parting just like to make a couple of points if I may.
Fax, you suggest that Senna put other drivers and track marshals at risk. I have a couple of views on this. Firstly if I may quote you from an unrelated thread, ‘Read the ticket, “Motor racing is dangerous” Secondly the way I see it is that Senna was aggressive and determined, it showed in the way he drove. I don’t believe however that he was reckless. It was his ability to improvise, to take risks that made him thrilling to watch, you never knew what he was going to try next. What I have read about the man would suggest that when he executed what appeared to be high risk manoeuvres he did so because he 100% believed it was possible. He wasn’t always right, he was after all only human. I wonder if he may have been deluded in as much as that he thought he was invincible. He was arrogant, but then so are most people who live life at the top of their chosen professions.

Mr Zarse, I always read your contributions and have a great deal of respect for you and your views. When the thread is funny, then you are funny, serious you are serious about the sport we love, balanced and well informed. To suggest that Sennas’ career was pretty much all about a fast lap on a wet Donington is frankly beneath you.
I too was deeply saddened by the tragedy that befell Roland Ratzenberger. Like you I saw him race at Le Mans. In fact I was lucky enough to stumble across him very early on when I saw him put on a very classy display at Brands Hatch in the Formula Ford festival. You are right it was a truly tragic weekend.

As for Mr Schumacher I will judge in the only that I feel qualified so to do. As a racing driver. Please note this is a personal opinion and I do not want to offend anyone but I would like to use a simile for convenience. Schumacher is to me the motor racing equivalent of Eric Clapton. He is technically about as perfect as you can get, he is so fast, so precise. He has been at the top of his profession for as long as I can remember and I admire and respect what he has achieved. But I find the combination of all of these factors irrationally tedious.

Finally I would like to say that my opinions of these men are as racing drivers. As a paying spectator I feel qualified and justified in being able to come to these conclusions and publish them on this sight. I did not/have not met either of them which obviously puts me at a disadvantage to Fax and Mr Zarse who I can only assume knew/know them pretty well otherwise I wonder what makes them feel so comfortable about publishing such defamatory remarks.

Now now monkey...
I never/have never exchanged tea and biscuits with Adolf/Thatcher/AA Gill or Michael Howard but I'm pretty sure they're all right old tw*ts.
Pinochet knew his onions though.
H

At least MS seems to ENJOY winning.  There are so many of the current bunch (notably Raikonnen) look so miserable when they are on the podium it is unbelievable.

It is good to see that so many people on this thread have the same view about Senna.  He did more harm to the 'sport' than anyone in living memory.  I sometimes wonder what would have happened to his reputation had the Imola accident not happened.  He may have been seen for the tosser he really was.  It seems no-one in the mainstream press is prepared to propogate this argument for fear of upsetting the masses.  He wasn't Mother Teresa of Calcutta, he was only a racing driver.

Good point well made H but all of the above mentioned are noted in history and their actions are well documented. I was interested in your remark on your previous post regarding your mate and Senna being nice enough away from the glare of publicity. I have met Prost on several occasions and found him to be the same. I guess my point is that I feel we are sometimes a little quick to judge.

Now you're talking, there was a racing driver and a half and no mistake! Who could forget the Holy Trinity team in the sixties (Anno Domino)?
That wet afternnon at Zandvoort when The Father, The Son and Holy Ghost came in at 1,2,3 brought a lump to my confessional. MTs selfless driving, and magic with the boiled rice, paved the way for that result...
H

However Zandvoort is a very difficult place to learn and I have heard rumours that Mrs T got lost after turning right into the hairpin at Tarzan and disappeared into the sand dunes.  Much like her son did a few years later.  It's in the genes....

Monkey, like you say we all have our own opinions and have expressed them well. Seriously I don't think I tried to summarise Senna's whole career in one lap at a wet Donnington. But on reflection, if one had to summarise any driver's career in a single lap I truly can't think of any better lap I have ever witnessed. Thus I think this should be taken as the utmost complement; my mentioning it was certainly never meant as a put down.

My final word on the matter. Some think Ayrton Senna DaSilva was the greatest driver ever. Some don't. Some think Fangio was the all time top banana, whilst others would contend that it was Tazio Nuvolari or Alberto Ascari. What is remarkable about the likes of these old timers and also the likes of Moss, Collins, Clarke and a host of other wonderful drivers over the years is that I have never, ever seen, read or heard anyone express such excoriating sentiments about them. Nobody questions their sportsmanship though they must surely all have taken risks equal to Senna's when competing against other drivers on the track. That is why, in my opinion, it is impossible that Senna can ever, should never, be classed as the greatest.

The bastards are all at it, it's even plumbed the depths of World Touring Cars.

Yvan Muller and his creamed rice and mono-sodium glutemate snack:

(http://www.sniffpetrol.com/starscars22.jpg)

Julian Bailey and his raw cane alcohol and condensed milk liqueur:

(http://www.sniffpetrol.com/starscars24.jpg)


All shamelessly purloined from the wonderful Sniffpetrol

(http://www.sniffpetrol.com/latenews0608_03.jpg)

All good points well made. Perhaps I have a rather pragmatic and selfish view on all of this.......Senna was my favourite enemy by which I always shouted for the 'the other guy' but despite all of that, I just loved to watch him race.

Speaking of wet laps at Donington, I think we’ll be seeing plenty of those on Sunday!! ;D

That is one thing we can all agree on.
See you guys in '07 ! ;D

(http://static.flickr.com/83/223850260_71e374accf.jpg)

(http://static.flickr.com/49/120286355_cb9506561a.jpg)

Simply put, my memories of Senna are Hungary 1990 when unable to pass Nannini cleanly for the lead he simply nerfed him off the road, almost overturning the Benneton in the process.  How about Estoril 1988 when Prost drew level with him coming up the pit straight and Senna swerved at him almost shoving him into the pit wall.  No one was killed, which is about three hundred people less than would have had one of the McLaren's been launched over the pit wall.
And of course my favorite is the 1990 180 mph guided missile attack on Prost at Suzuka (which later Senna admitted was deliberate) I guess it didn't matter to him that the rest of the field were following directly behind them and had Prost's rear wing landed in the middle of the track rather than the side of it, there would have been carnage.  I'm assuming these are all the hallmarks of a all-time to great to you Monkey.  Motor racing is dangerous and a part of the sport, pre-meditated assault is not.  Agree with Andy completely, he'll never rank with the greats in my eyes, the likes of Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Ascari, Lauda, Moss, Hill, etc. would never have even thought of pulling the stunts he did, they were professionals who had too much respect for their sport to ever disgrace it.
Fax

I respect your views and feelings Fax. He remains in my humble the most exciting driver I have ever seen for the reasons I have already outlined and as I mentioned I know we will never agree on this, not even close. I do hope you won't take offence at me if I point out that in the above does feature......... well a great deal of speculation, 'almost' features rather a lot 'had the McClaren been launched over the pit wall' 'had his rear wing landed in the middle of the track there would have been carnage' its all highly emotive stuff. I do think you are pushing it a bit, blaming him for things that actually never happened.

The thing is that Senna WASN'T exciting to watch.  Sure, he was fast.  Perhaps he was great but he certainly was not exciting.
Of course the 'modern' cars he was driving do not allow a driver to be cavalier (no Vauxhall pun intended) but Senna was absolutely not exciting.  Peterson, Gilles, Master James, they were exciting but, when you get down to it Senna was just fast.  And a fast bully boy at that.

paultarsey - I am sure you are right about Peterson, Gilles, and Hunt being exciting but I am sorry to say that I never had the pleasure of actually seeing any of them race. All through this thread I have been careful to point out that I regard Senna as the most exciting/greatest driver I have ever seen.

I (and many others on this forum) have had the pleasure of seeing the likes of Ronnie Peterson, Gilles Villeneuve, and the rest of their generation race.  They were from a different era, a different breed.  They laid it out there, took it to the edge, and you could clearly see just how talented they were.  Contemporary racing cars mask a drivers skills.  They have to be driven as if on rails to be driven quickly. A big part of the reason I find contemporary racing such a crashing bore.  I spent my school years watching my hero Superswede powersliding a March and Lotus f1 car or BMW sportscar. 
But as I mentioned previously as well, the drivers I worshiped and grew up with didn't have to resort to the sort of childish antics that we saw from Senna and still see from Schumacher.  To them it was a sport above all else, if you were beaten to the corner fair & square you surrendered it, re-grouped, and figured out how to get the position back, you didn't swerve into the path of your opponent or just go crashing into him. That's kiddie Formula Ford stuff.  I remember when Keke Rosberg made his F1 debut, he said Mario took him aside and said quietly "You know we do things differently in F1"  Keke said that spoke volumes and he knew he had to conduct his racing with dignity and respect from then on.  Senna and Schumacher's conduct has made a mockery of the chivalry and honor the drivers before them displayed.
Fax

I fall into the same camp as fax and Andy Z on the Senna debate.

While a supreme driver, it could be argued the best of his generation he was without doubt able to drive a car faster over a single lap than anyone, he had a flaw.

He was prepared to do anything to win without regard to the safety of anyone as he believed it was his divine right to win and could not understand that someone could possibly be in front.

When he did it properley, like when Alesi in the new high nose Tyrrell passed him in the 1990 US GP, Senna reacted in the best way and repassed cleanly it was a joy to watch. But other times, notably when racing Prost later in his career it put the term 'sport' to shame and i felt cheated watching his great talent decend to farce.

I contend that if he had been talked out of that at an early stage, the signs where there during FF and F3, he would be looked at now in a different light and just maybe the whole ethos in motorsport now would be different.

I had the good fortune to see Clark, Hill, Hunt, Lauda, Prost, Andretti, Rosberg et al racing "in the flesh" as it were and Clark is still the tops in my book, not least because he could do with a Lotus Cortina just what he could do with his F1 car although undoubtedly the Chapman partnership was a match made in heaven.  Senna was the beginning of the end for me as far as Formula One was concerned - a mean-spirited competitor who would do anything to win.  I have more time for Shuey as his joy in winning is so obvious to everybody.  I don't think the amount we know about drivers' personalities really does us any good in assessing the quality of their skills on the track.  Perhaps these days we just have too much information about what they are like off the track.
Sports car racing was my first love from the age of 5 and still is because the drivers aren't so up themselves and we see their true colours - genuine sportsmen on the whole who understand that they are not alone in their teams and rely so much on their co-drivers and the quality of the support they get in the pits.
F1, who cares?

I really have enjoyed this debate, and I hope you guys have too. I think one of the main reasons that I originally became so embroiled in it was actually because I felt that it was a little sad that a couple of bloggers felt the need to be so openly offensive about a couple of individuals one of whom was unable to defend himself on account of the fact that he had been dead for over ten years. A hole, t+sser were the chosen descriptions used.
The debate has gone on and on. We will never agree. I would like to close my side with  a few quotes:
On the subject of racing:
 'Michael Schumacher is a racer and it’s a pity we’ve not got more like him. Like guys such as Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell, he’s prepared to take a few risks. F1 doesn't need drivers who pussyfoot around; we want them racing.'
 
Bernie Ecclestone (1998)
On the subject of technical ability and race craft

"Once in Spa he (Senna) described to me three-quarters of an hour of a single practice lap, with all his impressions and feelings, but in particular all the technical data, rev-counts, oil pressure, etc. At every point, in every bend, absolutely precisely, going into the bend, in the middle of the bend and at the exit from the bend ... Afterwards we compared it with the telemetry data - it was all exactly right. Incredible."-Bernard Dudot, Chief of Honda's engine division

I will leave the final words in my defence of Ayrton Senna to a man I have had the great pleasure of meeting (all be it on an informal basis) on several occasions, a man who in my opinion was one of the all time greats, without a doubt, a man who is respected throughout the sport for his skill his daring his unbelievable courage and his knowledge and a man who unlike us humble bloggers met Senna a man whose opinion I certainly do respect who said of Ayrton simply:

"He was the best driver who ever lived."-Niki Lauda

So who do I most respect, the opinions of a couple of all be it very knowledgeable bloggers chatting over a beer at turn ten, or someone who has lived the sport. It is to me, (if I may use one of your countrymen’s hideous expressions Fax) something of a ‘no brainer’

Sports car racing was my first love from the age of 5 and still is because the drivers aren't so up themselves and we see their true colours - genuine sportsmen on the whole who understand that they are not alone in their teams and rely so much on their co-drivers and the quality of the support they get in the pits.
F1, who cares?

Me too, hear hear. ;D

In company with your quotes I'll let my defence of my postion rest with Keke Rosberg and Damon Hill who both have said openly that if the FIA had put the clamps on Senna's on track thuggery when he began using these sort of tactics in FF & F3, we wouldn't have to watch the BS we see from todays crop of drivers. (Michael Shumacher included)
Everyone has an opinion, thats what this forum is for in the first place, to express them.  It's not written in stone that everyone has to agree.
You criticise me for picking on a dead man unable to defend himself?  I won't be a hypocrite, I thought he was a jerk when he was alive, and I won't suddenly change my tune and fawn all over his memory because he's dead.  Many of the opinions you here these days from motor racing hacks are simply playing to the masses.  Most of them couldn't stand Senna when he was alive (Nigel Roebuck being a perfect example) but realizing there's good money to be made in the dead Senna industry they've suddenly sainted him.
Fax

Cheers Fax, once again.  Hitler's dead - does that mean he was a good bloke - should we alter the opinion we have of him? (Not that there's any comparison, don't get me wrong.)  I had little respect for Senna when he was alive and still don't although of course I'm sorry he was killed.
Monkey, I do see that great drivers like Lauda may have been right (and they do know what it's like at the sharp end, none more than him) that he was the "greatest driver who ever lived" but that doesn't alter the fact that he was unsporting and was prepared to indulge in brattish behaviour that, at the time, made my day when anybody beat him.  Lauda is entitled to an opinion on who was the greatest driver but he didn't compete against Fangio, Clark and Nuvolari either so it is, as for all of us, just an opinion at the end of the day, although an informed one.  We're all entitled to those aren't we?

Yes of course, well said.  ;D

My God, I didn't even know he'd been ill!

Monkey, well put, but I think it was Mansell I described as a tosser, not Senna. Care to disagree? ;) Incidentally Fax and myself nearly came to blows about Mansell who I felt was probably the bravest driver I ever saw race although I think we both agreed he would have been well advised to keep his mouth closed when out of the car. And as for his "dying swan" act at the end of every race... :(

Look, we're never going to agree on this but, like Fax, I will not change the opinion I held when Senna was alive simply because the man is no longer with us; I think he brought disgrace upon his sport.

Ha ha i always remember when he was in indycar and it was his birthday, i think probably his 60th, and it was a cracking race, oval, overtaking top and bottom, full on excitement and at the end Mansel wins stumbles out of his car pulls his helmet off and is caked with vomit. Brilliant, but funny. Who else could race so hard and win whilst vomiting in a helmet!!

Didn't James Hunt emerge similarly adorned with vomit after winning one of his races in 1976 - France possibly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xep6TfdWRlk&NR

If you like Senna you will like this short film and you may even be crying into your Senna duvet by the end.

If your not a fan of his, and I admit I am not, most will agree his car control was supreme and we can all moarn the lose of those.

The comments from Frank Williams at the start are quite telling with regard his first test for Williams.

He did also do alot of work for charity so he should get some points for that.

As Nordic well put it, Senna did make numerous charitable contributions.  However most top athletes making millions generally do (At least over here. Most top baseball and football players have charities set up in the communites in which they play. Here in Cincinnati many of the Reds and Bengals have charities they contribute much time and money to.) I ridiculed Schumacher for having to issue a press release last year noting his donation to the tsunami relief, I thought it very self serving.  Tiger Woods donated millions to tsunami relief as well (his mother is Thai after all) but didn't utter a peep about it.
Regarding the Nige ::) I freely admit most of my opinion of him is coloured by his off track demeaner.  Good grief! The endless pissing & moaning, and as Andy said, the post race hysterics, etc.  The guy had the world by the balls and all he ever did was bitch & complain the moment someone put a microphone in front of his mug.  Rick Mears used to say that he had to pinch himself every morning when he woke up, he just couldn't believe he actually got paid to drive racing cars, and nobody would ever be able to wipe the smile from his face.  Whenever Rick signed a autograph he said "Thank you" to the recipient of the autograph. There are a great many people of all professions who should learn to accept fame, success, and wealth with such grace.
Nigel was never a pretty driver to watch (in fact I would describe his style as downright butt-ugly at times), and never a great qualifier. But he was probably one of the best overtakers in racing history, and ferocious in battle.
Fax

Oldtimer, I think it was France '78.  He alone was the only car to stay in touch with Mario & Ronnie that day and the effort left him exhausted and wretching in his helmet on the last lap, still made it home for third though.  James had his critics but his drive that afternoon was nothing short of majestic.  I have that race on video and the way he threw the M28 around trying to stay on Ronnie's tail was a thing of beauty.
Also James tended to be quite high strung before a race and the sight of him puking in the pits was apparently a common one, especially early in his career.  Could have been because he'd been drinking his face off and shagging some bird till the wee hours the night before too. ;D
Fax

Fax I do believe you are right... well at least some elements of my memory are still in working order even if not the bits that recall race position and year!

Fax I agree. I was lucky enough to be sat down at Stowe corner during the 1987 British GP when he drew in a 30 second deficit on Piquet at a rate of 2 seconds a lap, to whip passed him with a couple of laps to go. That manoeuvre was something to behold, but there were many others that afternoon that were quite breathtaking. ;D

Yeah, Monkey, I was there too.  Remember when F1 was great to watch. Sigh.

Yeah, Monkey, I was there too.  Remember when F1 was great to watch. Sigh.

The memory is fading, but yes I do just about ;D

At forty four years my memory is struggling a bit as well.
James was driving a McLaren M26 in 1978, not the M28 (which was well & truly a dog, in fact calling it a dog might be complimentary.  That was a car that started life as a dog and just became a heavily redesigned dog ;D)
I was always a Piquet fan but will be the first to admit that the dummy that Mansell sold Piquet approaching Stowe during the '87 British GP was something else.
Fax

Small world - like Monkey I too was sitting down at Stowe that year... you weren't there as well were you Fax?

It was a peach of a move.

Not me, was a twenty five year old perched in front of the TV at seven in the morning here in Cincinnati.  Used to get up every race morning as excited as a little kid on Christmas to watch the GP's live from Europe.  They couldn't pay me to get out of bed to watch the crap they call F1 these days.
Fax

Small world indeed!! There was a momentum about the move, he did not hesitate for a moment, he caught Pequet and just kept going flat out. I have often thought that had he hesitated for a moment then he would not have got past him. There was very nearly contact and I remember Mansell coming round the circuit after the race riding pillion on a motor cycle, having the driver stop so he could get off and kiss the tarmac. It was quite something

Too true... sometimes these days I am not even aware when the GPs are taking place.  I used to be, like you, a devoted follower but than my father took me to Le Mans.  The rest is history!

Fax, I agree, sometimes I try to watch a GP but literally I struggle to stay awake and often I fail, I am then usaully woken by the German national anthem….. ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTXqw-7QWs

Mansell overtaking Nelson P was a great move as was his pass of Berger in Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmXsq78Ch_w

Big balls for sure. shame he was (is) such a self serving twat.

Nice one Nordic.

There you go Monkey - tarmac kissing too!

Big balls for sure. shame he was (is) such a self serving tw**t.

I remember hearing a story about him. He owns (owned a golf club) and was conducting the first ever corporate event there. The club provided food and hospitality and the like, and also insisted on providing the prizes all charged at great expence to the client company. They were very nice and rather expensive prizes ( silver cups trophies etc) Mr Mansell was invited to play and graciously accepted. He then went about winning everything. You would think he would then declare himself as a non competitor and allow the company to share the prizes among the corporate guests. No allegedly he kept the lot!! ::)

His boxing in of Senna behind Stefan Johannson's Onyx in the 1989 GP of Hungary was a work of art too.  But everyone seems in agreement, the guy had some serious character issues.
In 1995 I asked a couple of Newman-Haas mechanics if they were happy to have Michael Andretti back on the team, they said yes, but they were even happier to be rid of Mansell.  During the 1994 season he absolutely refused to do any testing, leaving it entirely to Mario, while Nigel worked on his golf game.  But then Mansell would show up at a race weekend and sit around and bitch about the car's setup.  By the end of '94 everyone in CART was glad to see his backside heading out the door.  By all acounts Patrick Head couldn't stand him either.  When he returned to Williams in 1991 it was Sheridan Thyne (spelling?) who pitched the idea of Nigel's return to Frank Williams and the sponsor's.  Apparently Patrick Head was completely opposed to it.
Fax

I was also at Stowe for that overtaking move!
I have a friend who used to work for the Williams test team when they were developing the active ride. Mansell so detested active ride he took the non active car out at the the end of the test and went quicker. He sure has balls, just wish he would shut up sometimes.

A mischievous thought has crossed my mind...  Don't suppose he was deliberately holding back when in the 'active' car do you..?

Perish the thought!

If memory serves me correctly he was rather disinterested in the active project until Nelson used the active car at Monza in 1987 and promptly went out and blew everyone's door off.  I think Mansell's intial distaste for the active route came from Lotus first tests with active suspension in 1983 when the sensors had a annoying habit of sending the wrong signals to the computer and the car tended to do some alarming things.
Fax

I reckon the only reason people sneer at Mansell and say he wasn't in the same league as Senna and Prost was because he was basically a whingeing git. But he could make the rest of them look daft, and did so frequently.

The driver who most reminds me of Mansell (in the car) is Takuma Sato. Shame no proper team is willing to take a risk on him. Seems its better now to have someone who will drone around relatively quickly and wait for the pitstops (R. Schumacher?) than a fighter who will actually try to overtake, and occasionally bin it.

Your assuming that we actually tune in and watch F1 now. ;)  Some do, some don't. I haven't watched a GP since the one I attended on freebie tickets at Indy.
Fax

Just read through this thread and I feel it's got much too "lovey dovey" with everyone agreeing to disagree, etc.  I think it would be a much better debate if those involved drew more on the personal weaknewses of their opponents.

Words like; "w**k*r", "old fart", "clueless nob", "limey", "yank" might be good suggestions as places to start.

Ding Ding

OK then.  How can that old fart Fax, the clueless yank nob, possibly think he has a right to comment on F1 if he never watches it unless some limey wncr gives him a free ticket?
ECA ;)

  weaknewses!! Learn how to spell you wncr old fart clueless nob!! How is that for starters  ;D ;D

Old Fart Clueless Yank Nob?  And damn proud of it! ;D
One afternoon spent sitting in the stands IMS told me everything I need to know about contemporary F1. (I don't even like to call it that, I prefer "High Dollar, No Passing Allowed, Spec Racing")
OFCYN Fax

Eh? Honda? Not a proper team?

Ok Sato is very enthusiastic, but he gets completely carried away. His ambition is in inverse proportion to his talent and in my opinion that is his greatest weaknews.

I think you will find that you are actuallly a knob ;D

Mr Zarse - my last entry must have been posted pretty much simultaneously with yours.

The knob gag was for the benefit of Fax!

Dave, you make a very good point, but being away from these shores you've fotgotten how the British act; everyone apologises but nobody means it. I for one think that anyone who disagreed with me and Fax is a complete ccksckr. ;)

Old fart clueless limey nob here?  ;D

You got it all wrong Fax you t+sser ;D

It should be called 'Formula For uninformed corporate invites now going silly having ingested tons' FFUCINGSHIT. ;D

On another slighty less contraversal note, today is the anniversary of Stefan Bellof tragic demise at Spa in 1985.

I wonder how he would have faired against Senna, Mansell and Prost?

He was famed for his hard driving and the thought of him battling his contempories in equal machines would, i think have been a sight to behold.

Pretty damn well I would say.

Senna, Mansell, I'll give you.  Prost, not so sure.  Dull as ditchwater to watch but a master and without the personality disorders of the other two.  And still going strong.  Awaits barrage of abuse.....

Despite my apparent blind hatred of all Johnny Foreigners,  ??? I would have to agree The Prof was a top egg.

Risking the wrath of Dave H I agree. Prost was every bit as quick as the others and knew when to keep his mouth shut.

Its hard to tell how Bellof would have turned out. He took alot of risks and was not above giving the odd nudge. Could he have been like Senna or an earlier Shumacher?

BTW do you know if there is any truth in the rumour that Prost's sudden exit from Renault had anything to do with being caught in bed with the wife of a high ranking Renault manager?

Not heard that before, but he IS French!

Nice to see some salvos being fired.  Well done chaps.

Ahhhh.  Finally back in the US today.  Was in the UK all of last week and managed to create a bit of a continuous photoshoot in central London when it came to speed cameras.  Some day they're gong to track me down.

The Flash

Don't you mean he IS a bloke?

Wow! Its been twenty years already since Bellof's ill-fated attempt to pass Jacky Ickx at Eau Rouge.  I always rated Bellof very highly, still holds the outright lap record at the Ring.  But like GV before him probably too fearless for his own good.  I think had he survived a few more years and settled down, Germany would have crowned their first World Champ long before what-his-face.
Regarding The Little Prof?  The ultimate thinking man's driver.  Perfect combination of raw speed with a calm, clinical mind, for the turbo area.  How many times in 1985 & 86 did we see a Senna Lotus Renault take off like a scalded cat at the start of a race and build up a huge lead, only to find himself during the final laps of a race out of fuel, tires spent, brakes shot, with a red & white McLaren looming in his mirrors.  Alain was a master at preserving a car, especially during the early laps when the cars were pig heavy with fuel (remember, no refueling 1984-1994).
I have heard the same story that Alain got chucked out of Renault at the end of 1983 because he was having a affair with Mrs Gerard Larrouse.
Fax

Was thinking about Bellof tonight, shame that the Porsche 956 didn't have better than the structural integrity of a beer can. Stefan (and Manfred Winkelhock) would still be around today.  Most remember how Senna was catching Prost in the torrential rain at Monaco in 1984 when the race was stopped early.  But most also don't remember Bellof in the Tyrrell was catching them both hand over fist!
Fax

What IS going on here? ECA, OFCYN, Mr Zarse and Nordic all agreeing about a driver?  We must stop this right now or Dave H will be on our case. ???

I can open a subject that sometimes provokes heated debate, at least it does between Andy and I.  While at Mid-Ohio for the IMSA weekend in 1990, I was wandering around the paddock and bumped into JP Jabouille checking out one of the AAR Toyota Eagles.  I mentioned how I was a great fan of the generation of French F1 drivers he was a part of of.  I asked him what he thought of Didier Pironi and he slightly stunned me when he said he thought Didier was the best of the lot, better even than Prost.  Said had he not been hurt at Hockenheim he would probably have dominated F1 in the eighties.
Fax

Yeah, unlikely AZ will be complimentary about 2 frogs on one post!

Villeneuve in Nascar, watch this space ! Yes i know its rumoured that he wants to do it, but last week I was waiting at Atlanta airport for a delayed flight to Charlotte. The flight was delayed for 3 hours, and who was sat next to me at the gate, but non other than Craig Pollock. We sat chatting about racing for about an hour.

I know for a fact that he had flown from Monaco all the way to Charlotte for a 1 day trip for a business meeting the next day.

He wouldn't confirm or deny that it was about JV, but did say he was meeting "New Friends".

And we all know Charlotte is Nascar capital as far as were the teams are mostly based.

PS- Delta also his his luggage as well as mine. Not good at 1.30 am in the morning having only a camera with you for the first night in a hotel and its pissing down buckets with rain.

Gilles, and indeed Jaques Villeneuve were/are French Canadians. Does that count?  you are bang on the button though. I never really forgave Didier for what he did to my beloved Gilles. I'm not saying he actually caused the crash, but he certainly knew which buttons to push on Gilles, unfortunately he pushed the one marked self-destruct.

Andy, I think she may have been referring to Prost as the other Frenchman.  JV jr. is about as Canadian as I am. I don't think he's lived in Canada since he was about five.  I've always felt Gilles, not Pironi, put Gilles in the grave. A good many drivers said in the aftermath of his death that they were sad about his accident, but they could see it coming for a while.  The guy just didn't know the meaning of the word lift.  He was on his pit in lap when he crashed.  I've always blamed the Ferrari managment for what happened at Imola, not the drivers invloved.  Mauro Forghieri has always said he wished he'd been there to handle the situation, he was away for personal reasons and the team made a mess of the pit signals that led to the confusion.
Fax

Yeah Fax, that was what I meant.  JV French,  ma derriere!