Club Arnage

A rant about My Renault Megane Scenic.

On my frogeye, over the years, I've changed many mechanical bits including the gearbox (four to five speed), propshaft, and cylinder head etc.

I tried to replace my headlight bulb (£4.99 from local motor factors) on my Renault and it turns out that you have to remove a large part of the front bodywork including the front bumper, as access is so restricted.

I called Renault UK and they said
"Yes quite a few people have complained about that. It's a half hour job and will cost you anywhere between £50 and £90 and No we can't use your new bulb, we have to use one we supply".

So on the basis that it's illegal to drive on French roads (and British for that matter) without all your lights operational and without carrying a spare. What are you supposed to do if one of your headlights goes while driving on the motorway.
Wait for a tow truck?

Renault UK told me that they had to design it that way or they couldn't fit the engine in.

I told them B0ll0x

Not just Bl**dy french cars, 

PT Cruisers - you have to get up inside the wheel arch, remove a panel to remove the light bulb holder to remove the bulb. - WOT -imagine that on a wet motorway.

Saw on a focus web site,


Looks like the ford focus designers - were unfocused -  ;D

Hey bud had a similar problem on my 53 plate focus Rs , to change the n/s head light or sidelight bulb you have to remove the battery or swear a lot trying to get the back of the light off !!! :'(

My Company Laguna had a flat battery which was needed to be replaced as the cells had dried out. When I phoned them, they said, of all things:-

Bring it round today and we will replace it while you wait. (BTW it will not start was my response)

Then when I gave the reg they said "Oh it is still in Warranty!" They then followed with we will collect it from you place of work on Friday. It was Tuesday. So much for warranty repairs!!!

When I have time I'll give you my Grumpy Old Man angle on modern cars.

Well my Laguna anyway.

It includes but is not limited to.  The crap way the door locks work, The fact you can't switch the Cruise control/Speel Limiter to KPH,  The beeps and f4rts it makes when you stop the car and get out,  (You learn to ignore them.  Thus you don't hear the one important beep that tells you the lights are on.) The user hostile interface to the GPS.  The easy to knock child lock that I really don't need at my age.   The cr*p bluetooth interface.  The sh*t RDS.   It takes the handbrake off automagicly.  Why can't it put it on?  Instead it flashes a message that tells you to put the brake on.  DUH?

If a bulb goes I think you have to relplace the car.   

Well last time a bulb went I phoned the leasing company,  They send someone along with a new car.  But it was only a Clio  I couldn't get on with it.  I was about to complain.  When the guy came back with a replacement Laguna.   Looked just like my old one.  Same Colour, same reg,  same mileage give or take.   But my car was never that clean!  ;D ;D ;D


t.

My Dad had a Citroen CX Athena in the late 70's. The RAC man who regularly attended to peer into the engine bay and scratch his head declared that this was why the French should stick to designing knickers. The old fella's party trick was to firmly close the bonnet, which caused the boot lid to fly open - all very Laurel and Hardy. The self-centering steering and the fruit-machine speedo was a bit of an eye-opener too.
Personally, I've never been a huge fan of les voitures francais - Ryton-built Pug 309 and 405 "Grunders" saw to that.

Bit of a moot point this with modern cars. Whilst it is true that it is an offence to drive on most european roads with non operational lights, the regulations with regards to replacement of bulbs actually only require that it can be done without the use of special tools.
There are many vehicles where it is pretty much impossible to change the bulb insitu, and requires the removal of the headlamp from the vehicle, and this is usually because of the amount of crap that is being packaged into engine bays nowadays. The offending articles are usually batteries and aircon units. Audi for one state in their owners manuals that bulb replacement is a dealer operation! (this seems to be a way around the special tools requirement) It seems to be accepted that you are OK if you are driving your car to get the bulb replaced.
As for the £50- £90 quid, be grateful you aren't driving a Bentley GT. To remove the headlamp requires the disassembly of the entire front end...bumper, wing, subpanels, aircon, intercoolers etc...at one point it was being discussed about dropping the engine aswell!!. Outside of waranty comes in about £1000  :o
Oh, and if any of you have cars fitted with HID lights and have a burner go on you, do not try to replace these yourselves. 25KV can do lots of damage to fingers ;D

So £60 and half a day later, I have all my lights working, until the next one goes pop. It's not the cost so much (although I do think it is a ridiculous price to pay to have a bulb put in), it is the extortion element.
As for special tools, how many people (except classic car owners who tend to have more stuff than they will ever need) carry a star drive socket in their boot.
It was the "couldn't really give a t*ss" attitude of the garage which really annoys me.

Whinge over

Yeah, they really shouldn't be using torx screws where access to servicable items are concerned unless they include the relevant tool in the tool kit. We use torx screws on lamps where there is a requirement for something to be tamper proof. (covers to HID units etc)
I really think it is out of order for these vehicle manufacturers to knowingly produce vehicles where bulbs can only be replaced by dealers. £60 to replace a £1.50 bulb is daylight robbery.
P.S. for info, the average life of an H7 bulb @ 12.8v is 500 hours. Most vehicle systems run at nearer 13.5v nowadays with about a 30% reduction in the bulb life, so expect to be replacing your halogen bulbs after about 300 hours of use.

Yep, mine has these, and from what I understand the replacement process is a bit of a rigmarole and can only reasonably be carried out by a dealer with his sonic screwdriver set.

I believe the HID units have a much longer life than standard Halogen bulb units but I just know that there will be considerable expense should it ever have to happen. Never mind the extortionate labour rates - I'm told the units are £500+  :o

Makes me smile all this, my Herald - Changed the H4 bulb (yes ive upgraded the lights - but not the dynamo yet - like driving in a Charlie Chaplin balck and white film)

4 screws - 10 mins tops -  Cost new bulb £4.00 !

This is a K reg motor as well.

Some things don't just get better with development - just more expensive.

I think that with a HID equipped car, when the lamp unit fails it's perfectly acceptable to put it in a ditch in the dark, write it off, and blame the blown headlamp.

Never mind perfectly acceptable, it's probably cheaper.

Triumphs have their ideosyncracies...

Having owned a Triumph Stag for 22 years ....any repairs were easy peasy,compared to my Mk1/2 Espaces....!)I replaced 10 clutch pedals due  to crap design.....but what a fantastic vehicle for transporting washing machines and other white goods to customers houses.....but last I year had to upgrade to a Fiat Ducato van due to increased business as Lawnmower man can confirm!!!.....having spotted me in Tilehurst recently

Plus we needed larger transport for transporting our encampment to foreign climes.....in June

Wishy

Yeah, you are right, HID units should have a life of between 3K -4K hours (lifetime of vehicle). One of the reasons why car manufacturers are packaging engine bays as they are because as the uptake of HID increases so the need for access to change headlamp bulbs decreases. However as with all things, infant mortality/rogue units will occur in a number of instances. Retail a new burner is about £80, to us I think we buy them in @ around about the £5 mark!! So factor in an hour or 2 labour and there is your cost. If you have to replace the electronics then you are talking £500+ atleast. Just watch the insurance premiums start to climb when HID headlamps have to be replaced after shunts ;D

Oh, and if anyone is thinking about these aftermarket upgrade kits you can get for about £100...dont! The reflector forms for halogen and HID are completely different and you will have an illegal lamp. Not only that, but even if the kit has an E mark, it is still illegal to use it in a lamp that was approved with a halogen bulb. Now the chances of being pulled over for this are fairly low, but you may find your insurance null & void if you make a claim with these kits in place. :police:

"However as with all things, infant mortality/rogue units will occur in a number of instances.

Yes two bulbs on two different Renault Meganes in two weeks! but the previous one (an older model) cost £4.99 for the bulb and took thirty seconds.

The garage said not only can't you put them in yourself, but you have to have a full tank of petrol so that they/the computer can align them properly (or something like that).

That I can guarantee is Bullsh*t. I know for a fact that when the lamps are set at the manufacturer the tank is no where near full. The law only requires that the headlamp is capable of being aimed correctly. It is the reponsibility of the end user to ensure that they are actually aimed correctly. The MOT aiming range is so large that you could have the boot full of concrete and still pass.
Anyway, all you are doing is replacing one bulb for another, this should not affect the aim by any appreciable amount so if the lamp was aimed correctly to start with it should still be correct afterwards. I would not expect to have to reaim a lamp on a vehicle just because I changed a bulb. We do sometimes see a slight difference in aim between bulbs when we are looking at lamps in our darkrooms, but then we can detect differences of 0.005 of a degree, an error of this magnitude in the real world is inconsequential considering the dynamic pitching of the vehicle on the move. This is not a requirement imposed by the manufacturer or the law, it is a way for the dealer to recoup the costs of an expensive piece of aiming equipment they have bought that they probably don't know how to use properly (very few people in the world know how to aim lamps correctly).
One of the biggest warranty liabilities vehicle manufacturers have is with dealers submitting claims for reaiming lamps as part of the PDI. It is a joke, and is only done to line their pockets >:(
caveat no:1- if the lamp was removed from the vehicle to replace the bulb then it would definitely need to be reaimed. Still no requirement for a full tank of petrol tho...me thinks they are trying to get away with charging you to fill the tank.

Thanks for the reply Big G.
They didn't ask me or offer to fill the tank but it was pretty much full anyway.

I just checked the invoice and they charged me £9.86+Vat for the bulb. £41+vat for labour.
Total of £59.77 including vat
Renault guidlines says cost of anything between £50 and £90 inclusive.

Its still an absolute joke for something as simple as changing a bulb >:(
Do you know if you can get to the back of the lamp without having to remove anything? In future, I can give details of how best to change the bulbs yourself in tight spaces if only you can get your hand down the back of the lamp.

Maybe it has something to do with them car dealers not making enough money on selling cars? :-\

Anyway, just smash the glass and change the bulb from there. Most simple way of doing it ;D

No. I'd had a really good look and started to take off various panels at the front of the car, but  when it was looking obvious that I'd have to remove the front bumper as well, I decided to admit defeat and book it in to the garage.
There is probably no more than 3mm of space behind the light fitting, and while you can loosen off the headlight mountings and jiggle it about a bit, the whole unit is held captive untill you start dismantling major parts of front bodywork.
Lets hope I never have to replace a fan belt!

Damn bad luck. I know the Ford Group companies are starting to use quick release fittings on their headlamps so that you can release the headlamp by pulling up 2 locking tabs. This is a very good system although it can be tricky to get the clips to re-engage as the lamp has to be really pushed home onto the mounts before the clips will move (clamping/mounting tolerances being very tight on lamp mounts)

I had just enough clearance to change the a headlamp bulb (£5.99) on my Audi A4 (V6 version), but had to remove the whole headlight assembly to change the indicator bulb.  Only 3 bolts (yes, torx) were holding it in (only 2 now as I lost the little spring/cage nut on the lower fixing).  Took me a couple of hours, but half of that was learning curve.  Bastard thing was the indicator bulb hadn't blown anyway - it is a bayonet fitting, but the bayonets are off-set, and someone had put it in the wrong way, causing very intermiitent operation of the front indicator.

As said above, the manual says that it is a job for the dealer.

Del

This all sounds so familiar.  With the Peugeot, the headlight bulbs were easy (but why is a H7 bulb with one filament £7, when a H4 with two filaments is a fiver).  Behind each light was a plastice cap - dead easy.  But the sidelight was between the two, bayonet fit on a plastic stick.  It took 20 mins to fathoum out what to do with it.

Anyway, I bought the new motor thinking thank god back to sensible H4 lights, but no, facelift means limited access H7s.  Its a French thing, except this is an English car

The H4 is a very 'old' bulb. The manufacturing process is relatively crude and the filaments aren't positioned as acurately as an H7. The H7 (from reputable manufacturers atleast) is a tight tolerance (6 axis positioning of the filament), high performance bulb using high spec materials and fill gasses (used to be known as Xenon bulbs until HID came along and stole that title). So it really is just down to the fact that they do actually cost more to make even though they have 1 less filament.

The offset pins are intended to prevent you swaping the Amber PY21W (indicators) with a 'clear' P21W (stop, fogs etc). Essentially the same bulb but with an amber coating to the envelope. The problem arises in the bulb holders which have such large tolerances on them that quite often the pins dont even engage in the locating slots. On occasions like this, and where people don't realise that the pins are offset, the bulb can be forced into the holder in any orientation you like.
We have to be very careful when training our assembly operators to make sure that they understand this fact (quite difficult nowadays as they tend not to speak the lingo any more   ??? ) and even then they still occasionally get it wrong  ::). And before you ask, no we don't do the headlamp for the A4 ;D