Jacques villeneuve

[amazing 1]

Ah yes, dusk at Turn 10 at Sebring, some superb company, cold beverages, and lively conversation about the sport we love....Dosen't get any better than that
Fax

That is one thing we can all agree on.
See you guys in '07 !

[Fax]

Simply put, my memories of Senna are Hungary 1990 when unable to pass Nannini cleanly for the lead he simply nerfed him off the road, almost overturning the Benneton in the process.  How about Estoril 1988 when Prost drew level with him coming up the pit straight and Senna swerved at him almost shoving him into the pit wall.  No one was killed, which is about three hundred people less than would have had one of the McLaren's been launched over the pit wall.
And of course my favorite is the 1990 180 mph guided missile attack on Prost at Suzuka (which later Senna admitted was deliberate) I guess it didn't matter to him that the rest of the field were following directly behind them and had Prost's rear wing landed in the middle of the track rather than the side of it, there would have been carnage.  I'm assuming these are all the hallmarks of a all-time to great to you Monkey.  Motor racing is dangerous and a part of the sport, pre-meditated assault is not.  Agree with Andy completely, he'll never rank with the greats in my eyes, the likes of Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Ascari, Lauda, Moss, Hill, etc. would never have even thought of pulling the stunts he did, they were professionals who had too much respect for their sport to ever disgrace it.
Fax

[monkey]

Simply put, my memories of Senna are Hungary 1990 when unable to pass Nannini cleanly for the lead he simply nerfed him off the road, almost overturning the Benneton in the process.  How about Estoril 1988 when Prost drew level with him coming up the pit straight and Senna swerved at him almost shoving him into the pit wall.  No one was killed, which is about three hundred people less than would have had one of the McLaren's been launched over the pit wall.
And of course my favorite is the 1990 180 mph guided missile attack on Prost at Suzuka (which later Senna admitted was deliberate) I guess it didn't matter to him that the rest of the field were following directly behind them and had Prost's rear wing landed in the middle of the track rather than the side of it, there would have been carnage.  I'm assuming these are all the hallmarks of a all-time to great to you Monkey.  Motor racing is dangerous and a part of the sport, pre-meditated assault is not.  Agree with Andy completely, he'll never rank with the greats in my eyes, the likes of Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Ascari, Lauda, Moss, Hill, etc. would never have even thought of pulling the stunts he did, they were professionals who had too much respect for their sport to ever disgrace it.
Fax

I respect your views and feelings Fax. He remains in my humble the most exciting driver I have ever seen for the reasons I have already outlined and as I mentioned I know we will never agree on this, not even close. I do hope you won't take offence at me if I point out that in the above does feature......... well a great deal of speculation, 'almost' features rather a lot 'had the McClaren been launched over the pit wall' 'had his rear wing landed in the middle of the track there would have been carnage' its all highly emotive stuff. I do think you are pushing it a bit, blaming him for things that actually never happened.

[paultarsey]

The thing is that Senna WASN'T exciting to watch.  Sure, he was fast.  Perhaps he was great but he certainly was not exciting.
Of course the 'modern' cars he was driving do not allow a driver to be cavalier (no Vauxhall pun intended) but Senna was absolutely not exciting.  Peterson, Gilles, Master James, they were exciting but, when you get down to it Senna was just fast.  And a fast bully boy at that.

[monkey]

The thing is that Senna WASN'T exciting to watch.  Sure, he was fast.  Perhaps he was great but he certainly was not exciting.
Of course the 'modern' cars he was driving do not allow a driver to be cavalier (no Vauxhall pun intended) but Senna was absolutely not exciting.  Peterson, Gilles, Master James, they were exciting but, when you get down to it Senna was just fast.  And a fast bully boy at that.

paultarsey - I am sure you are right about Peterson, Gilles, and Hunt being exciting but I am sorry to say that I never had the pleasure of actually seeing any of them race. All through this thread I have been careful to point out that I regard Senna as the most exciting/greatest driver I have ever seen.

[Fax]

I (and many others on this forum) have had the pleasure of seeing the likes of Ronnie Peterson, Gilles Villeneuve, and the rest of their generation race.  They were from a different era, a different breed.  They laid it out there, took it to the edge, and you could clearly see just how talented they were.  Contemporary racing cars mask a drivers skills.  They have to be driven as if on rails to be driven quickly. A big part of the reason I find contemporary racing such a crashing bore.  I spent my school years watching my hero Superswede powersliding a March and Lotus f1 car or BMW sportscar. 
But as I mentioned previously as well, the drivers I worshiped and grew up with didn't have to resort to the sort of childish antics that we saw from Senna and still see from Schumacher.  To them it was a sport above all else, if you were beaten to the corner fair & square you surrendered it, re-grouped, and figured out how to get the position back, you didn't swerve into the path of your opponent or just go crashing into him. That's kiddie Formula Ford stuff.  I remember when Keke Rosberg made his F1 debut, he said Mario took him aside and said quietly "You know we do things differently in F1"  Keke said that spoke volumes and he knew he had to conduct his racing with dignity and respect from then on.  Senna and Schumacher's conduct has made a mockery of the chivalry and honor the drivers before them displayed.
Fax

[Nordic]

I fall into the same camp as fax and Andy Z on the Senna debate.

While a supreme driver, it could be argued the best of his generation he was without doubt able to drive a car faster over a single lap than anyone, he had a flaw.

He was prepared to do anything to win without regard to the safety of anyone as he believed it was his divine right to win and could not understand that someone could possibly be in front.

When he did it properley, like when Alesi in the new high nose Tyrrell passed him in the 1990 US GP, Senna reacted in the best way and repassed cleanly it was a joy to watch. But other times, notably when racing Prost later in his career it put the term 'sport' to shame and i felt cheated watching his great talent decend to farce.

I contend that if he had been talked out of that at an early stage, the signs where there during FF and F3, he would be looked at now in a different light and just maybe the whole ethos in motorsport now would be different.

[termietermite]

I had the good fortune to see Clark, Hill, Hunt, Lauda, Prost, Andretti, Rosberg et al racing "in the flesh" as it were and Clark is still the tops in my book, not least because he could do with a Lotus Cortina just what he could do with his F1 car although undoubtedly the Chapman partnership was a match made in heaven.  Senna was the beginning of the end for me as far as Formula One was concerned - a mean-spirited competitor who would do anything to win.  I have more time for Shuey as his joy in winning is so obvious to everybody.  I don't think the amount we know about drivers' personalities really does us any good in assessing the quality of their skills on the track.  Perhaps these days we just have too much information about what they are like off the track.
Sports car racing was my first love from the age of 5 and still is because the drivers aren't so up themselves and we see their true colours - genuine sportsmen on the whole who understand that they are not alone in their teams and rely so much on their co-drivers and the quality of the support they get in the pits.
F1, who cares?

[monkey]

I really have enjoyed this debate, and I hope you guys have too. I think one of the main reasons that I originally became so embroiled in it was actually because I felt that it was a little sad that a couple of bloggers felt the need to be so openly offensive about a couple of individuals one of whom was unable to defend himself on account of the fact that he had been dead for over ten years. A hole, t+sser were the chosen descriptions used.
The debate has gone on and on. We will never agree. I would like to close my side with  a few quotes:
On the subject of racing:
 'Michael Schumacher is a racer and it’s a pity we’ve not got more like him. Like guys such as Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell, he’s prepared to take a few risks. F1 doesn't need drivers who pussyfoot around; we want them racing.'
 
Bernie Ecclestone (1998)
On the subject of technical ability and race craft

"Once in Spa he (Senna) described to me three-quarters of an hour of a single practice lap, with all his impressions and feelings, but in particular all the technical data, rev-counts, oil pressure, etc. At every point, in every bend, absolutely precisely, going into the bend, in the middle of the bend and at the exit from the bend ... Afterwards we compared it with the telemetry data - it was all exactly right. Incredible."-Bernard Dudot, Chief of Honda's engine division

I will leave the final words in my defence of Ayrton Senna to a man I have had the great pleasure of meeting (all be it on an informal basis) on several occasions, a man who in my opinion was one of the all time greats, without a doubt, a man who is respected throughout the sport for his skill his daring his unbelievable courage and his knowledge and a man who unlike us humble bloggers met Senna a man whose opinion I certainly do respect who said of Ayrton simply:

"He was the best driver who ever lived."-Niki Lauda

So who do I most respect, the opinions of a couple of all be it very knowledgeable bloggers chatting over a beer at turn ten, or someone who has lived the sport. It is to me, (if I may use one of your countrymen’s hideous expressions Fax) something of a ‘no brainer’

[monkey]

Sports car racing was my first love from the age of 5 and still is because the drivers aren't so up themselves and we see their true colours - genuine sportsmen on the whole who understand that they are not alone in their teams and rely so much on their co-drivers and the quality of the support they get in the pits.
F1, who cares?

Me too, hear hear.

[Fax]

In company with your quotes I'll let my defence of my postion rest with Keke Rosberg and Damon Hill who both have said openly that if the FIA had put the clamps on Senna's on track thuggery when he began using these sort of tactics in FF & F3, we wouldn't have to watch the BS we see from todays crop of drivers. (Michael Shumacher included)
Everyone has an opinion, thats what this forum is for in the first place, to express them.  It's not written in stone that everyone has to agree.
You criticise me for picking on a dead man unable to defend himself?  I won't be a hypocrite, I thought he was a jerk when he was alive, and I won't suddenly change my tune and fawn all over his memory because he's dead.  Many of the opinions you here these days from motor racing hacks are simply playing to the masses.  Most of them couldn't stand Senna when he was alive (Nigel Roebuck being a perfect example) but realizing there's good money to be made in the dead Senna industry they've suddenly sainted him.
Fax

[termietermite]

Cheers Fax, once again.  Hitler's dead - does that mean he was a good bloke - should we alter the opinion we have of him? (Not that there's any comparison, don't get me wrong.)  I had little respect for Senna when he was alive and still don't although of course I'm sorry he was killed.
Monkey, I do see that great drivers like Lauda may have been right (and they do know what it's like at the sharp end, none more than him) that he was the "greatest driver who ever lived" but that doesn't alter the fact that he was unsporting and was prepared to indulge in brattish behaviour that, at the time, made my day when anybody beat him.  Lauda is entitled to an opinion on who was the greatest driver but he didn't compete against Fangio, Clark and Nuvolari either so it is, as for all of us, just an opinion at the end of the day, although an informed one.  We're all entitled to those aren't we?

[monkey]

Cheers Fax, once again.  Hitler's dead - does that mean he was a good bloke - should we alter the opinion we have of him? (Not that there's any comparison, don't get me wrong.)  I had little respect for Senna when he was alive and still don't although of course I'm sorry he was killed.
Monkey, I do see that great drivers like Lauda may have been right (and they do know what it's like at the sharp end, none more than him) that he was the "greatest driver who ever lived" but that doesn't alter the fact that he was unsporting and was prepared to indulge in brattish behaviour that, at the time, made my day when anybody beat him.  Lauda is entitled to an opinion on who was the greatest driver but he didn't compete against Fangio, Clark and Nuvolari either so it is, as for all of us, just an opinion at the end of the day, although an informed one.  We're all entitled to those aren't we?

Yes of course, well said. 

[Andy Zarse]

  Hitler's dead -

My God, I didn't even know he'd been ill!

[Andy Zarse]

Monkey, well put, but I think it was Mansell I described as a tosser, not Senna. Care to disagree? Incidentally Fax and myself nearly came to blows about Mansell who I felt was probably the bravest driver I ever saw race although I think we both agreed he would have been well advised to keep his mouth closed when out of the car. And as for his "dying swan" act at the end of every race...

Look, we're never going to agree on this but, like Fax, I will not change the opinion I held when Senna was alive simply because the man is no longer with us; I think he brought disgrace upon his sport.