Title: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: johnevans3 on September 05, 2005, 02:24:47 am
I'm sorry I've not been on the forum for a week now but I've been focused on the tragedy that happened on the gulf coast of the US. Although I live in Texas now, my family and my wife's family live in the area that runs between Baton Rouge, Louisiana and Pascagoua, Mississippi.
Many of you have probably seen the pictures that are coming out now and seen the devastation that spans 150 miles of coast land including New Orleans. The area that has been destroyed, according so some reports, is the size of England, 90,000 square miles of leveled ground with a few structure shells remaining. It looks like an atomic bomb was exploded. We will know in the coming weeks about how many have died and how many will be missing and never found.
My wife's family of aunt's and cousins in the New Orleans area all evacuated before the storm and are alive but their homes were destroyed. Her elderly father was evacuated from Pascagoula, Mississippi before the storm and is well but lost his home as well. My family members are alive but homeless as well.
This is a tragedy that cannot be understood even by those at the scene. Some of the CA members from Florida were just absolutely hammered last year week after week with hurricanes and know what this is all about. I don't know how many of you have seen what a hurricane can do or a tornado but this storm was like a 150 mile wide tornado with 140+ mph winds that reached inland 100 miles to flatted many houses, blow trees down on houses, cut power, telephone, etc. The 30+ foot wall of water that came ashore, like the tsunami, flatted everything in its path from 1/2 mile to as far as 6 miles inland from the shore for 150 miles. Some have generators for power but now are running out of gas and won't have electricity for 4-8 weeks or longer.
Some of you guys that met Larry at Sebring, think about him today. He has no power, no gas now, an occassional cell phone signal, and is sleeping with a gun by him to protect what little he has left. His house has damage but it will be repaired. He is one of the lucky ones. There is some looting so it is a bad, bad situation. Over 2 million people were placed in very primitive living conditions within just a few minutes.
If you have it in your hearts, please say a prayer for those who have been affected by this catastrophe. I believe we are our brother's keeper. I just wanted you guys to know what's happening.
John
Many of you have probably seen the pictures that are coming out now and seen the devastation that spans 150 miles of coast land including New Orleans. The area that has been destroyed, according so some reports, is the size of England, 90,000 square miles of leveled ground with a few structure shells remaining. It looks like an atomic bomb was exploded. We will know in the coming weeks about how many have died and how many will be missing and never found.
My wife's family of aunt's and cousins in the New Orleans area all evacuated before the storm and are alive but their homes were destroyed. Her elderly father was evacuated from Pascagoula, Mississippi before the storm and is well but lost his home as well. My family members are alive but homeless as well.
This is a tragedy that cannot be understood even by those at the scene. Some of the CA members from Florida were just absolutely hammered last year week after week with hurricanes and know what this is all about. I don't know how many of you have seen what a hurricane can do or a tornado but this storm was like a 150 mile wide tornado with 140+ mph winds that reached inland 100 miles to flatted many houses, blow trees down on houses, cut power, telephone, etc. The 30+ foot wall of water that came ashore, like the tsunami, flatted everything in its path from 1/2 mile to as far as 6 miles inland from the shore for 150 miles. Some have generators for power but now are running out of gas and won't have electricity for 4-8 weeks or longer.
Some of you guys that met Larry at Sebring, think about him today. He has no power, no gas now, an occassional cell phone signal, and is sleeping with a gun by him to protect what little he has left. His house has damage but it will be repaired. He is one of the lucky ones. There is some looting so it is a bad, bad situation. Over 2 million people were placed in very primitive living conditions within just a few minutes.
If you have it in your hearts, please say a prayer for those who have been affected by this catastrophe. I believe we are our brother's keeper. I just wanted you guys to know what's happening.
John
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Chris24 on September 05, 2005, 03:06:14 am
Our thoughts are with you guys over there, and your families. Hang on in there.
Best Wishes Chris
Best Wishes Chris
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Fax on September 05, 2005, 07:36:46 am
John,
My prayers are with the people on the Gulf coast. As I mentioned on another thread, I'm horrified at the response to the situation down there. It's not acceptable that its taken a week for the US government to get food, water and medical supplies to its own people in a time of crises. Things have gone horribly pear shaped in this country and I think we know where it lies...in the White House!
Fax
My prayers are with the people on the Gulf coast. As I mentioned on another thread, I'm horrified at the response to the situation down there. It's not acceptable that its taken a week for the US government to get food, water and medical supplies to its own people in a time of crises. Things have gone horribly pear shaped in this country and I think we know where it lies...in the White House!
Fax
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Nobby Diesel on September 05, 2005, 09:51:58 am
I am astonished by what has happened.
My thoughts go to all those who have been affected by this terrible disaster.
Why is there such a difference in the way the aftermath is being handled by those directly affected, when compared to South East Asia, after the tsunami?
I think we all need to take a good long look at ourselves and the "me first" mentality of the west.
The very best of luck to you all - hang in there.
My thoughts go to all those who have been affected by this terrible disaster.
Why is there such a difference in the way the aftermath is being handled by those directly affected, when compared to South East Asia, after the tsunami?
I think we all need to take a good long look at ourselves and the "me first" mentality of the west.
The very best of luck to you all - hang in there.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Andy Zarse on September 05, 2005, 11:53:09 am
Our thoughts are with you John and everyone touched by the natural disaster. It's hard to understand the power of hurricanes and the damage they wreek unless you've experienced it. Send my regards to Larry.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: johnevans3 on September 05, 2005, 04:14:26 pm
Hey Fax, I agree the disaster recovery efforts have been shameful. Two points.
1. The media should have been in charge of the whole evacuation,
recovery effort. They were in place a week before the storm
arrived saying it's bad and it's going to knock the crap out of
somebody when it hits between the Florida panhandle and the
upper Texas coast, then it narrowed a few days before to the New
Orleans area. The media rode the storm out and had commun-
ications to report the storm hitting....and they were the only ones
in place reporting the aftermath before and local, state, federal, or
Red Cross types were on the scene. They knew what was going on
and where things needed immediate attention while the policiticians
at all levels and "do gooders" were getting their act together.
2. A very interesting interview this AM with the mayor of New Orleans
was aired and he said that when the President and his officials met
with him and the Governor of Louisianna on Air Force One, there
were two important points.
a. federal troops authorized by Bush must be "invited by the governor the state" before federal troops can enter the state to participate in the securing of the area. Federal troops can't invade a state, they must be requested by the governor. So Bush can't send troops in troops until requested but FEMA 's performance has been terrible and they should have been there the day after the hit. However local authorities were being shot at and couldn't do much until the area was secured by local police (overwhelmed) and national guard (too few).
b. according to the mayor, when Bush proposed two options to
the governor, she said she wanted 24 hours to make a decision. This meeting was on Wednesday or Thursday, I believe. The governor was paralyzed in her decision to request of the president federal troops to secure area. What a dumb ass to want another 24 hours when the whole city is going down the toilet.
My deduction from that interview is that the mayor and governor of Louisianna screwed up alot more than Bush. So you may be "Bush Bashing" a little bit too much in this case if the mayor is telling the truth.
I'm sure this will sort out as time goes on but human tragedy could have been far less if the governor and mayor leadership had been on the same page. We all seem to be at the mercy of the politicians who are supposed to represent our best interests.
1. The media should have been in charge of the whole evacuation,
recovery effort. They were in place a week before the storm
arrived saying it's bad and it's going to knock the crap out of
somebody when it hits between the Florida panhandle and the
upper Texas coast, then it narrowed a few days before to the New
Orleans area. The media rode the storm out and had commun-
ications to report the storm hitting....and they were the only ones
in place reporting the aftermath before and local, state, federal, or
Red Cross types were on the scene. They knew what was going on
and where things needed immediate attention while the policiticians
at all levels and "do gooders" were getting their act together.
2. A very interesting interview this AM with the mayor of New Orleans
was aired and he said that when the President and his officials met
with him and the Governor of Louisianna on Air Force One, there
were two important points.
a. federal troops authorized by Bush must be "invited by the governor the state" before federal troops can enter the state to participate in the securing of the area. Federal troops can't invade a state, they must be requested by the governor. So Bush can't send troops in troops until requested but FEMA 's performance has been terrible and they should have been there the day after the hit. However local authorities were being shot at and couldn't do much until the area was secured by local police (overwhelmed) and national guard (too few).
b. according to the mayor, when Bush proposed two options to
the governor, she said she wanted 24 hours to make a decision. This meeting was on Wednesday or Thursday, I believe. The governor was paralyzed in her decision to request of the president federal troops to secure area. What a dumb ass to want another 24 hours when the whole city is going down the toilet.
My deduction from that interview is that the mayor and governor of Louisianna screwed up alot more than Bush. So you may be "Bush Bashing" a little bit too much in this case if the mayor is telling the truth.
I'm sure this will sort out as time goes on but human tragedy could have been far less if the governor and mayor leadership had been on the same page. We all seem to be at the mercy of the politicians who are supposed to represent our best interests.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Fax on September 05, 2005, 05:50:42 pm
My biggest problem with the situation in New Orleans is that they knew in advance that a cat. 3 or higher hurricane could possibly breach the levees protecting the city. Why in the hell didn't they have troops, medical people, food, water & supplies staged and ready to move in right away when they knew Katrina was on the way? I'm not just targeting Bush alone, our government as a whole seriously f**ked up. The guy in charge of FEMA's head should roll for this.
Fax
Fax
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: johnevans3 on September 05, 2005, 07:07:03 pm
Like you, for the life of me, I don't understand why Fort Benning, Ga. and those bases in San Antonio weren't loaded really to roll literally as the hurricane eye was moving over Hattiesburg and Meridian leaving the coast behind. They knew several days in advance this thing was a killer. The military, supplies, FEMA, etc. could have been brought in by circling in from the south, flown in from over the gulf. Granted they didn't know about Louis Armstrong airport but could mount an assault like landing as in Normandy BUT they have to be requested by a dumb ass governor who thought she knew what she was doing and didn't have a clue and when the President is in her face offering military support, she wants to sit on her ass for another 24hrs. Her own resources were not enough and I would bet that somebody somewhere had played out worse case drills about the anarchy and lawlessness that would occur when civilization infrastructure breaks down. "Lord of the Flies" ain't new reading material even.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Snoring Rhino on September 05, 2005, 07:29:58 pm
The time for recriminations is later - first get the aid to the right places quickly, we have had jokers here, asking why we should send aid (military ration packs) to the richest nation in the world - because the scale of the problem is huge, and we can, that’s why, it takes maybe 10 hours to fly from here in a cargo plane. These supplies are stockpiled with quick response in mind, that’s what they need, now whoever has admitted there's a problem, the rest of the domestic support can follow on.
Good to hear your folks are safe John - the rest can be rebuilt.
Good to hear your folks are safe John - the rest can be rebuilt.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Kate Shaw on September 06, 2005, 10:56:24 pm
My parents were missed by this hurricane but were hit hard by Hurricane Ivan -- in a very small town of 1200 people, 85% Black and the rest elderly White people. My prayers are with your family. I know second-hand what they are going through.
As for all the people here who think that they could have handled the aftermath with laryngitis and no rehearsal, I'm going to copy a response by a member of the military to explain what will be needed to fix a disaster that has wiped out the same size territory that comprises your entire country. Read through it and tell me where President Bush screwed up.
As for all the people here who think that they could have handled the aftermath with laryngitis and no rehearsal, I'm going to copy a response by a member of the military to explain what will be needed to fix a disaster that has wiped out the same size territory that comprises your entire country. Read through it and tell me where President Bush screwed up.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Kate Shaw on September 06, 2005, 10:58:15 pm
"I offer the following cross post from someone who knew what they were talking about before she opened her mouth. What do you think the National Guard is just sitting in 4x4s in the garage every day of the week?! They have families, are on vacation, jobs etc. Double oh my God, do you think trucks are just sitting around ready to roll to feed a half a million people in every state in the Union? Do you think they levitate 100s and 1000s of miles?
Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months!
A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up.
9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:
1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed.
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering.
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them.
6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in.
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest.
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours.
10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap.
11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work.
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again.
By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."
Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months!
A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up.
9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:
1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed.
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering.
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them.
6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in.
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest.
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours.
10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap.
11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work.
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again.
By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Abs on September 07, 2005, 12:08:49 am
As for all the people here who think that they could have handled the aftermath with laryngitis and no rehearsal, I'm going to copy a response by a member of the military to explain what will be needed to fix a disaster that has wiped out the same size territory that comprises your entire country. Read through it and tell me where President Bush screwed up.
WTF, Kate take another look at the thread and tell me where people are knocking Bush... from what I have read all are more concerned about the people caught up in this mess.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: jpchenet on September 07, 2005, 10:01:05 am
I'm sorry Kate but the majority of the comments below make no sense whatsoever!
"I offer the following cross post from someone who knew what they were talking about before she opened her mouth. What do you think the National Guard is just sitting in 4x4s in the garage every day of the week?! They have families, are on vacation, jobs etc. Double oh my God, do you think trucks are just sitting around ready to roll to feed a half a million people in every state in the Union? Do you think they levitate 100s and 1000s of miles? No-one suggests otherwise. But when you have probably one weeks notice that something is about to happen, you plan for it! TYou do not wait for it to happen and then try to get people together and arange transport.
Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months! I hardly feel mobilizing your military to send it to Korea for a war can be compared to arranging aid to your own countrymen within your own country! Although from outside the US, it would seem that the current administration can react to events outside of the US faster than it can react in it's own backyard. I wonder how long it would take it would have taken to react if someone had sighted Osama Bin Laden
A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up. This is exactly the beurocratic problem that has been created by the US that needs resolving!
9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:
1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed. Most obvious statement in the world
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban (debatable) and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network. Helicopters
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region. Nonsense. You preposition them at a point where you know is safe (perhaps a further sixty miles out) By helicopter this is only an extra half an hour away!
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering. No, but there are helicopters capable of lifting huge amounts of aid directly to the points that need it most
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them. Getting them out is of course a priority, but a Sea King rescue helicopter can carry 24 people approx at a time. It could however carry iIN food and drink for 1000's. This needs to be a combined effort!6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in. They can be brought in by aircraft! A Chinook can carry as much as a truck, and transport it a lot quicker too!
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest. I'm sorry but recovery is not dependant on having the ports open to supply large equipment. I believe priorities are getting muddled here!
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours. True, the rebuilding of the infrastructure will take months, if not years. But surely peoples lives are more important. No-one has criticised them for not rebuilding a road quickly, they are being criticised for net getting aid to those that need it fast enough, or making areas safe from armed looters.10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap. But the "facts" stated are wrong!11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work. Interesting. So the networks satellite trucks can be there but aid trucks can't be??? Looks like a contradiction to item 3!
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again. I believe if you look at the discussions the main point of frustration has been the Louisiana officials and FEMA. That said, surely at the end of the day it is the White House administartion that must take final responsibility. Hell, if Bush had sent the Federal Guard in without the request of the governor and they saved peoples lives and made the area safe who the hell was going to complain. He didn't exactly wiat for the Iraqi's to request his intervention!
By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."
Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months! I hardly feel mobilizing your military to send it to Korea for a war can be compared to arranging aid to your own countrymen within your own country! Although from outside the US, it would seem that the current administration can react to events outside of the US faster than it can react in it's own backyard. I wonder how long it would take it would have taken to react if someone had sighted Osama Bin Laden
A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up. This is exactly the beurocratic problem that has been created by the US that needs resolving!
9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:
1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed. Most obvious statement in the world
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban (debatable) and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network. Helicopters
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region. Nonsense. You preposition them at a point where you know is safe (perhaps a further sixty miles out) By helicopter this is only an extra half an hour away!
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering. No, but there are helicopters capable of lifting huge amounts of aid directly to the points that need it most
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them. Getting them out is of course a priority, but a Sea King rescue helicopter can carry 24 people approx at a time. It could however carry iIN food and drink for 1000's. This needs to be a combined effort!6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in. They can be brought in by aircraft! A Chinook can carry as much as a truck, and transport it a lot quicker too!
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest. I'm sorry but recovery is not dependant on having the ports open to supply large equipment. I believe priorities are getting muddled here!
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours. True, the rebuilding of the infrastructure will take months, if not years. But surely peoples lives are more important. No-one has criticised them for not rebuilding a road quickly, they are being criticised for net getting aid to those that need it fast enough, or making areas safe from armed looters.10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap. But the "facts" stated are wrong!11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work. Interesting. So the networks satellite trucks can be there but aid trucks can't be??? Looks like a contradiction to item 3!
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again. I believe if you look at the discussions the main point of frustration has been the Louisiana officials and FEMA. That said, surely at the end of the day it is the White House administartion that must take final responsibility. Hell, if Bush had sent the Federal Guard in without the request of the governor and they saved peoples lives and made the area safe who the hell was going to complain. He didn't exactly wiat for the Iraqi's to request his intervention!
By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Ballast on September 07, 2005, 10:47:41 am
This is clearly a very difficult time for the American people, especially those with family and friends affected by this disaster.
I would like to include my best wishes to all those involved. As IRW stated, "now is NOT the time to be pointing fingers". There are thousands upon thousands of people out there in desperate need of help, so perhaps it might be beneficial to those people, be they black, white, blue or orange if these petty arguments were put to one side and everyone started pulling in the same direction!
Kate - I think Mark has answered your rhetoric. Quite frankly I think you should perhaps take a deep breath before you start making statements like that.
John – I find it very hard to believe that a man of your intelligence could indicate that the “media” should have been put in charge of the evacuation. I’m sorry but that’s absolute rubbish. Let me ask you a theoretical (I hope) question. During the “evacuation” a film crew notices a young child has been seriously injured and is lying unattended in the street. What do you think the reaction of the film crew would be?
A – Drop all of there equipment, run to the aid of the child and use their network van to get the child to safety?
B- Get a good bit of film first and then aid the child?
C – Get a prize winning piece of film and then move along to the next harrowing piece of footage?
I would pray that it would be A but I think we all know that at BEST it would be B and might even b C
Yep. Great idea!
I would like to include my best wishes to all those involved. As IRW stated, "now is NOT the time to be pointing fingers". There are thousands upon thousands of people out there in desperate need of help, so perhaps it might be beneficial to those people, be they black, white, blue or orange if these petty arguments were put to one side and everyone started pulling in the same direction!
Kate - I think Mark has answered your rhetoric. Quite frankly I think you should perhaps take a deep breath before you start making statements like that.
John – I find it very hard to believe that a man of your intelligence could indicate that the “media” should have been put in charge of the evacuation. I’m sorry but that’s absolute rubbish. Let me ask you a theoretical (I hope) question. During the “evacuation” a film crew notices a young child has been seriously injured and is lying unattended in the street. What do you think the reaction of the film crew would be?
A – Drop all of there equipment, run to the aid of the child and use their network van to get the child to safety?
B- Get a good bit of film first and then aid the child?
C – Get a prize winning piece of film and then move along to the next harrowing piece of footage?
I would pray that it would be A but I think we all know that at BEST it would be B and might even b C
Yep. Great idea!
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Andy Zarse on September 07, 2005, 11:38:28 am
I'm kinda on Kate's side here.
First off, this is where Bush was given a right old panning on Club Arnage:
http://www.clubarnage.com/forum/index.php?topic=4168.0
Next, this "helicopters to the rescue" stuff is a load of absolute nonsense, and lads, frankly I think you should know better. There were heicopters there, rescuing people out of the water. Helos have a remakably small pay load, but they do have a huge appetite for fuel, servicing and they need crewing by qualified human beings who are vulnerable to stress and tiredness. I would be very surprised if every airborn asset available wasn't already being flogged to death.
As it said, the devastation area is the size of the UK. Precisely how many bloody helicopters would it take to shift sufficient stores to look after everyone in disparate and remote communities? 1000? 2000? Your guess is as good as mine. But whatever the figure it's many, many more times than there were helos available. You need to look at the stats for the Berlin Airlift, where a transport aircraft landed at Templehof every forty five seconds, 24/7. Still the people of Berlin were starving and they had plenty of water there too. As for parking rescue vehicles in a safe area 60 miles away, I ask a) just how would anyone know where that safe area is before the storm hit, and b) there wasn't exactly a lot of notice was there?
No, IMO, the Louisiana state officials have a lot to answer for. Where was the disaster plan? Why was it not actioned?
I'm sure we all heard about the teenage boy who got together a load of old people and kids, and even though he'd never driven a truck before, took a "co-opted" yellow school bus to safety in Houston. Well, it seems he might now be stuck on a charge of taking and driving away without consent. Marvellous! This is in stark contrast to the photo I saw in the newspaper of a flooded parking lot of some 223 yellow school buses, pissing their fuel into the water. Apparently each bus has 66 seats, which means 14,718 seats in total. Per journey! Surely they could have been used to ferry people without their own transport (the old, the poor, the disadvantaged) to Houston or wherever and bring in aid? But oh no, they were locked up safely in the Education Dept compound under armed guard and now they are all f**cked by water damage. Just one more example of the lack of initiativen by State Officials. I don't know whather they are Democrat or Republicans in Louisiana, but they had clearly been spending their time thinking up more stupid laws to obtain total mastery of peoples lives than spending time on working out how to protect their citizens.
Ballast, to defend John Evans, I don't think he was seriously suggesting that the media should assist in the aid effort. I took it to be an ironic statement, a rhetorical question if you like.
Finally, had Federal Govt sent in troops without State permission, I absolutely guarantee that the left wing media would be having a field day on Dubbya. And he'd probably be impeached too for a flagrant breach of one of the absolute fundamentals of the US Constitution.
First off, this is where Bush was given a right old panning on Club Arnage:
http://www.clubarnage.com/forum/index.php?topic=4168.0
Next, this "helicopters to the rescue" stuff is a load of absolute nonsense, and lads, frankly I think you should know better. There were heicopters there, rescuing people out of the water. Helos have a remakably small pay load, but they do have a huge appetite for fuel, servicing and they need crewing by qualified human beings who are vulnerable to stress and tiredness. I would be very surprised if every airborn asset available wasn't already being flogged to death.
As it said, the devastation area is the size of the UK. Precisely how many bloody helicopters would it take to shift sufficient stores to look after everyone in disparate and remote communities? 1000? 2000? Your guess is as good as mine. But whatever the figure it's many, many more times than there were helos available. You need to look at the stats for the Berlin Airlift, where a transport aircraft landed at Templehof every forty five seconds, 24/7. Still the people of Berlin were starving and they had plenty of water there too. As for parking rescue vehicles in a safe area 60 miles away, I ask a) just how would anyone know where that safe area is before the storm hit, and b) there wasn't exactly a lot of notice was there?
No, IMO, the Louisiana state officials have a lot to answer for. Where was the disaster plan? Why was it not actioned?
I'm sure we all heard about the teenage boy who got together a load of old people and kids, and even though he'd never driven a truck before, took a "co-opted" yellow school bus to safety in Houston. Well, it seems he might now be stuck on a charge of taking and driving away without consent. Marvellous! This is in stark contrast to the photo I saw in the newspaper of a flooded parking lot of some 223 yellow school buses, pissing their fuel into the water. Apparently each bus has 66 seats, which means 14,718 seats in total. Per journey! Surely they could have been used to ferry people without their own transport (the old, the poor, the disadvantaged) to Houston or wherever and bring in aid? But oh no, they were locked up safely in the Education Dept compound under armed guard and now they are all f**cked by water damage. Just one more example of the lack of initiativen by State Officials. I don't know whather they are Democrat or Republicans in Louisiana, but they had clearly been spending their time thinking up more stupid laws to obtain total mastery of peoples lives than spending time on working out how to protect their citizens.
Ballast, to defend John Evans, I don't think he was seriously suggesting that the media should assist in the aid effort. I took it to be an ironic statement, a rhetorical question if you like.
Finally, had Federal Govt sent in troops without State permission, I absolutely guarantee that the left wing media would be having a field day on Dubbya. And he'd probably be impeached too for a flagrant breach of one of the absolute fundamentals of the US Constitution.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: hgb on September 07, 2005, 11:56:19 am
Ballast, when I read John's view I instantly saw the sarcasm behind it. And I bet that was his intention. After all the media was there before any official knew what had happened. Also, broadcasting the pictures of the devastation out to the world made clear that the situation is worse than expected and help is needed quickly.
What strikes me is that if poorer regions are hit international help (international Red Cross etc.) rolls in a lot quicker than if richer regions are hit. You can even see that here in Germany. Some years ago the eastern part of Germany was hit by floods and help was organised immediately. A couple of weeks ago south Germany was hit also by floods and nobody seemed to care.
This is not meant as criticism but only my perception.
What strikes me is that if poorer regions are hit international help (international Red Cross etc.) rolls in a lot quicker than if richer regions are hit. You can even see that here in Germany. Some years ago the eastern part of Germany was hit by floods and help was organised immediately. A couple of weeks ago south Germany was hit also by floods and nobody seemed to care.
This is not meant as criticism but only my perception.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: jpchenet on September 07, 2005, 12:32:07 pm
Andy, the "Bush Bashing" (what a wonderful phrase) was a single post from an American about America, clearly stating that if there armed forces were availabel for local issues instead of sitting in the Iraqi desert then things could have been better! I believe that is a simple fact! And one shared by a hell of a lot of Americans. I think there have been far more comments about state authorities.
With regard to helicopters. The4 US Army has approx 6000 helicopters. This does not take into account Air Force or Navy birds, or civilian ones. If the can carry on average 15 people per trip (possibly more) then that is 90,000 people per flight. They have a range of about 500 miles, so accessing the ares should not be a problem. At teh same time that they are flying in to collect people, they could have been distributing fresh water, food and blankets to those who would be waiting for a further airlift.
With regard to what is a safe distance for some pre-loaded relief trucks is, I'd say pretty much teh same distance as the networks satellites trucks were positioned. As for how much notice they had, pretty much the same notice that the networks satellite trucks had who maaneged to get in position in plenty of time.
As for the teenage boy (read "HERO" in my mind) who is now possibly going to be charged with taking and driving away, I think this just about confirms Fax's thoughts as to why he is embarrassed to be an American. As you've asked yourself, why didn't they use the school buses to evacuate the old and the vulnerable.
At the end of the day, they had the warning. They then had the transport and resources both pre and post hurricane. Why the hell didn't they use them.
With regard to helicopters. The4 US Army has approx 6000 helicopters. This does not take into account Air Force or Navy birds, or civilian ones. If the can carry on average 15 people per trip (possibly more) then that is 90,000 people per flight. They have a range of about 500 miles, so accessing the ares should not be a problem. At teh same time that they are flying in to collect people, they could have been distributing fresh water, food and blankets to those who would be waiting for a further airlift.
With regard to what is a safe distance for some pre-loaded relief trucks is, I'd say pretty much teh same distance as the networks satellites trucks were positioned. As for how much notice they had, pretty much the same notice that the networks satellite trucks had who maaneged to get in position in plenty of time.
As for the teenage boy (read "HERO" in my mind) who is now possibly going to be charged with taking and driving away, I think this just about confirms Fax's thoughts as to why he is embarrassed to be an American. As you've asked yourself, why didn't they use the school buses to evacuate the old and the vulnerable.
At the end of the day, they had the warning. They then had the transport and resources both pre and post hurricane. Why the hell didn't they use them.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: jpchenet on September 07, 2005, 12:36:20 pm
Courtesy of www.military.com
Top Pentagon Brass Defend Response Time
USA Today | September 07, 2005
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon's top officials said Tuesday that the military responded quickly to Hurricane Katrina, although it took nearly four days for troops to begin delivering large amounts of food and water to storm victims.
"Not only was there no delay, I think we anticipated in most cases -- not in all cases, but in most cases -- the support that was required," Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a Pentagon news conference.
Storm victims in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama complained bitterly that the military didn't start large-scale delivery of provisions until Friday. Some military helicopters began search-and-rescue operations Aug. 30.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he had appointed Navy Adm. Edmund Giambastiani to study the military's response to Hurricane Katrina to determine whether any mistakes were made. Giambastiani, a close Rumsfeld ally, is vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The commander of the first large Navy ship to participate in relief efforts said last week that she was notified the night of Aug. 28 -- the day before the storm hit -- that her vessel might be needed to provide relief. But she wasn't told to do so until late Aug. 30, the day flooding started in New Orleans, she said.
"I've got sailors I could send to the beach, but I can't force myself on people," Capt. Nora Tyson said Friday in an interview on the bridge of her ship, the USS Bataan.
Myers said military officials worked from the afternoon of Aug. 30 through the morning of Aug. 31 to assess the situation in New Orleans and decide what to do.
Myers and Rumsfeld said the military had planned its hurricane response but was caught off guard by the flooding. Experts, including those from the Army Corps of Engineers, have predicted for years that a hurricane as large as Katrina could cause widespread flooding in New Orleans.
Top Pentagon Brass Defend Response Time
USA Today | September 07, 2005
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon's top officials said Tuesday that the military responded quickly to Hurricane Katrina, although it took nearly four days for troops to begin delivering large amounts of food and water to storm victims.
"Not only was there no delay, I think we anticipated in most cases -- not in all cases, but in most cases -- the support that was required," Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a Pentagon news conference.
Storm victims in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama complained bitterly that the military didn't start large-scale delivery of provisions until Friday. Some military helicopters began search-and-rescue operations Aug. 30.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he had appointed Navy Adm. Edmund Giambastiani to study the military's response to Hurricane Katrina to determine whether any mistakes were made. Giambastiani, a close Rumsfeld ally, is vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The commander of the first large Navy ship to participate in relief efforts said last week that she was notified the night of Aug. 28 -- the day before the storm hit -- that her vessel might be needed to provide relief. But she wasn't told to do so until late Aug. 30, the day flooding started in New Orleans, she said.
"I've got sailors I could send to the beach, but I can't force myself on people," Capt. Nora Tyson said Friday in an interview on the bridge of her ship, the USS Bataan.
Myers said military officials worked from the afternoon of Aug. 30 through the morning of Aug. 31 to assess the situation in New Orleans and decide what to do.
Myers and Rumsfeld said the military had planned its hurricane response but was caught off guard by the flooding. Experts, including those from the Army Corps of Engineers, have predicted for years that a hurricane as large as Katrina could cause widespread flooding in New Orleans.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Ballast on September 07, 2005, 12:53:38 pm
Ballast, when I read John's view I instantly saw the sarcasm behind it.
If that is the case then I ask Johns forgiveness.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Fax on September 07, 2005, 02:02:39 pm
I'm not going to apologize for my Bush bashing for one second! The ball was dropped at all levels, local, state and federal. I've heard more piss-poor excuses and finger pointing from everyone involved. Interesting, that the reason given for not getting aid to the New Orelans convention center was that it wasn't accessible from the interstate but it took a NBC crew ten minutes to get there. My remarks were made about Bush in the days immediatly after the hurricane when I was hearing the same bullshit from him that we've been hearing for three years now about Iraq, that all is going to plan and all is well. I stand by what I said before, they knew it was coming and everyone just sat on their asses.
Fax
Fax
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: smokie on September 07, 2005, 02:59:35 pm
Also in Kate's defence, she was quoting someone else's words too...
My own opinion from what I've seen and heard is that some enormous bollocks have been dropped on all sides. For me, first target would be a bloke on CNN who had a title like "Director of Enormously Big Emergencies" for some quasi govt agency. He said that since 9/11 billions of dollars had been spent on disaster planning, and all the expenditure was unaccountable to anyone. He said that no-one in government had questioned where the money was going. But most amazingly, that they hadn't even considered a disaster of this scale - they could deal with bombings, chemicals, fire - but only on a much smaller local level. It was unprecedented, he said. OK, you could understand if it was only their sideline, but this whole agency was dedicated to assessing risk and planning for disaster.
Heads must roll, somewhere.
My own opinion from what I've seen and heard is that some enormous bollocks have been dropped on all sides. For me, first target would be a bloke on CNN who had a title like "Director of Enormously Big Emergencies" for some quasi govt agency. He said that since 9/11 billions of dollars had been spent on disaster planning, and all the expenditure was unaccountable to anyone. He said that no-one in government had questioned where the money was going. But most amazingly, that they hadn't even considered a disaster of this scale - they could deal with bombings, chemicals, fire - but only on a much smaller local level. It was unprecedented, he said. OK, you could understand if it was only their sideline, but this whole agency was dedicated to assessing risk and planning for disaster.
Heads must roll, somewhere.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Fax on September 07, 2005, 03:11:55 pm
Probably the bloke you saw was the head of FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) which is under the direction of the Dept. of Homeland Security (another federal agency). As you said, this is the first real test of all of the plans and billions we've spent preparing for this sort of calamity. If I'm Osama, I'm feeling pretty confident I can wreak untold havoc and and the US government will around like a big beaurocratic headless chicken.
Fax
Fax
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: johnevans3 on September 07, 2005, 04:41:48 pm
Hey,
I'm back guys and have been reading the aftermath of Kate's, Fax's and my messages. I'm sorry to have confused some of you with my Texas sarcasm about the media (if you saw live reports of those idiots getting out in the storm with 100+ winds to show you how hard it is to stand up, you would know these are not responsible, level-headed people and as some would say, if they had two neurons firing at the same time in their brain, they would electrocute themselves.) But down here in Texas, bullsh*t is just plain old bullsh*t.... and there is plenty of it to spread pretty far and pretty deep.
It should be clear that some things clearly did not work. I am prayerful that not only the US but the whole planet has learned from this and just might be smart enough to not forget the lessons heaved upon us at the expensive of many lives and broken hearts.
For those of you who met Larry, I spoke with him via cellphone and he says "We are OK and we're going to make it". He thanked everyone for their prayers and concerns.
We get thru these kind of things by pulling together now and reviewing/correcting after the crisis.
I'm back guys and have been reading the aftermath of Kate's, Fax's and my messages. I'm sorry to have confused some of you with my Texas sarcasm about the media (if you saw live reports of those idiots getting out in the storm with 100+ winds to show you how hard it is to stand up, you would know these are not responsible, level-headed people and as some would say, if they had two neurons firing at the same time in their brain, they would electrocute themselves.) But down here in Texas, bullsh*t is just plain old bullsh*t.... and there is plenty of it to spread pretty far and pretty deep.
It should be clear that some things clearly did not work. I am prayerful that not only the US but the whole planet has learned from this and just might be smart enough to not forget the lessons heaved upon us at the expensive of many lives and broken hearts.
For those of you who met Larry, I spoke with him via cellphone and he says "We are OK and we're going to make it". He thanked everyone for their prayers and concerns.
We get thru these kind of things by pulling together now and reviewing/correcting after the crisis.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Doris on September 07, 2005, 05:17:35 pm
If I'm Osama, I'm feeling pretty confident I can wreak untold havoc and and the US government will around like a big beaurocratic headless chicken.
Fax
Fax
Fax - It would appear the New Zealand press are with you on this....
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: mal on September 07, 2005, 06:30:03 pm
Maybe not now until the relief and rescues are fully complete, but to me the biggest question to be asked is why the levees and flood defences have not been upgraded over the years. It is common knowledge that New Orleans is a risk from flooding through the levees and it doesnt take much research to find that credible warnings of this potential have been largley ignored for decades.
Having said that now reality is here I find it difficult to comprehend the size of the area affected, but it still shouldnt take 5 days to get BASIC relief to those people stranded.
Having said that now reality is here I find it difficult to comprehend the size of the area affected, but it still shouldnt take 5 days to get BASIC relief to those people stranded.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Nordic on September 09, 2005, 12:36:48 pm
Bush has now made it to Mississippi.
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Andy Zarse on September 09, 2005, 04:17:26 pm
All together now: "... drove my Chevy to the levy..."
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Bob U on September 09, 2005, 04:53:48 pm
Maybe Bush is singing the greatest hits of katrina and the Waves
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: jpchenet on September 10, 2005, 10:52:57 am
A spokesman for the 60's band The Animals has made a public apology.
Apparently there isn't a house in New Orleans!!!
:-X
Apparently there isn't a house in New Orleans!!!
:-X
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: smokie on September 10, 2005, 11:06:59 am
Very amusant so far but careful how far you go with the poor taste jokes please...
Title: Re: Hurricane on US gulf coast
Post by: Canada Phil on September 13, 2005, 04:22:42 am
Hi JP Good one. A Toronto radio station had the misfortune to play the Tragically Hip song from the early 80's " New Orleans is Sinking" They have promised not to play it anymore after a public outcry,not that it is such a great tune anyway allthough quite a catchy line.
Canada Phil
Canada Phil
