Honda To ALMS In LMP2(?)

[chop456]

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/17918/

Nothing official and no word about the 24, but LMP2 could sure use some help in the U.S.  Between this possibility and the Porsche reality, I'll take whatever I can get.

Their Camel Lights effort, though not a true factory effort, was a smash in the IMSA GTP days.

I'm hoping at least a few people give a rat's arse about this.



Honda, Looking for Real Competition, will Take the Fight to ALMS

Written by: Robin Miller Indianapolis, IN – 6/30/2005

Honda will head to ALMS, and perhaps Champ, in pursuit of serious competition. (Photo: Darrell Ingham/Getty Images)

Brian Barnhart, the chief operating officer of the Indy Racing League, stated Wednesday that he wasn't sure if his series was any better off with Toyota and Honda since it hasn't improved attendance and television ratings. Hmmm, that sure sounds like a rather unappreciative man without an engine program for the future.

Because that's not how Barnhart and his IRL brethren sounded a four years ago when those two major manufacturers dumped CART for Tony George's series. The "League" was downright giddy and used phrases like "a great day for the IRL" and "the IRL has turned the corner."

Of course that lovefest is over.

The competition between those two hated Japanese rivals pretty much ran off General Motors and all but one of the IRL's original teams by 2004. Big money and free engines brought in five high-profile CART teams and the once level playing field where Jim Guthrie beat Tony Stewart's team now sports a Grand Canyon gap in competition.

With Toyota set to leave open wheel racing following 2006, the IRL is staring down the barrel of racing reality. Honda, which supports Andretti/Green, Rahal/Letterman and Super Aguri/Fernandez in various degrees, wants real competition (preferably from another manufacturer) or it's probably down the road.

And, despite Barnhart's insulting analogy, the IRL cannot afford to lose Honda since it's responsible for nearly half of the current lineup. Barnhart is right in that the IRL might be better off to revert to its old motor mantra of the late '90s where many teams bought parts and assembled their own engines. Except it's too late.

The IRL abandoned those by-laws to accept engine leases, more technology and the millions of dollars spent by Toyota and Honda. They brought in their own CART teams so it was goodbye to Fred Treadway and Brad Calkins to welcome Roger Penske and Chip Ganassi. Everybody was dazzled by the bright lights and, like CART found out, it's great while it lasts but what happens when Toyota and Honda leave?

That's the immediate challenge for the IRL since car count is so contingent on those two manufacturers because current sponsorships certainly can't carry the flag. Barnhart claims there are plenty of companies that can supply race engines and that's true. But he's going to be hard-pressed to find any that will subsidize teams and drivers like Toyota and Honda. Matter of fact, he won't.

Champ Car weathered the Japanese typhoon by having everyone run the same Cosworth engine and now that's actually a valid selling point for competition and prospective owners.

But Honda isn't waiting around to see if Barnhart finds it any competition.

SPEEDTV.com has learned that Honda Performance Development will enter the American LeMans Series next year in order to compete head-to-head with Porsche and Penske in the LMP2 category.

It's believed Bobby Rahal will be the lead team and it's also likely than Andretti/Green could be involved as well as another prominent car owner.

"That's news to me because no one from Honda has said anything to me about it," said Rahal on Wednesday night. "Now I've made no secret of my desire to be involved in sports car racing and I've talked to Audi, Aston Martin and Ferrari in the past few years but haven't been able to put anything together.

"All I know is that I've got a contract with Honda in the IRL."

This scenario becomes extra interesting because Champ Car and ALMS are working on a deal to run half a dozen doubleheaders together in 2006 -- beginning with Long Beach. So, indirectly, Honda would be again associated with Champ Car.

And, despite earlier denials from HPD president Robert Clarke, don't think for a minute the six-time manufacturer’s champion in CART still isn't looking at returning to Champ Car if the IRL can't provide suitable competition.

Clarke has been talking with both sides for several weeks about having a unified series by 2007 (it ain't gonna happen) and would like the Cosworth IRL engine (owned by Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe and currently badged by Chevrolet) to continue competing against Honda.

Hyundai, the seventh largest car manufacturer in the world, is exploring the possibility of badging the Cosworth in the IRL. But it's rumored that Honda has no desire to run against the Korean manufacturer it considers inferior, so that might not work.

HPD thrives on using its engineering prowess and resources to compete against major brands so taking on Porsche in the ALMS certainly meets that criteria.

But right now it's hard to say where Honda will be past 2006. Other than sports cars, of course.

[Andy Zarse]

LMP2 seems to be the place to be. First Mazda, then Porsche. Now Honda. Got to be good news.

PS. I'm no IRL/Champ expert, but always enjoyed watching the old CART races, especially on road racing tracks. What is it with the IRL? I cannot see how that idiot Tony George, who seemed to have the goose that laid golden eggs, could have screwed up so badly. The man is a total numpty IMO. The only bright side of the US GP fiasco was that it must have cost George money and reputation.

[stuey]

Why are they concentrating on LMP2 rather than LMP1?

LMP2 has been a bit of a joke class up to now. A few years ago all the talk was of an LMP2 car winning overall. Le Mans this year the class winning LMP2 was 21st overall, beaten by no less than six GT2 runners.

Can anyone enlighten me?  

[Steve Pyro]

When it first appeared, LMP2 / LMP675 looked to be a prototype class 'on the cheap'.  Maybe for that reason, the majority in this class don't seem to have the legs / speed / stomach for finishing further up the rankings.

Take a look at the Welter Racing cars for the last couple of years, way off the pace (even of LMP2), spend a lot of time in the pits and are lucky to finish, if at all.

Maybe the entry of some big name manufacturers in this class will up the ante somewhat.  Remember the MG Lola XPower cars in their Le Mans debut - very fast but plagued by the failure of some minor components.

[chrisbeatty]

It's a little odd really, I'd be expecting any works temas to be in the LMP1 class going for outright wins. The porkers are due to be customer cars eventually, but I'm sure there'll be a factory LMP1 appearing in a year or two.

But I'd expect to see Honda/Mazda/Nissan efforts to be only donating engines to teams in LMP2, then to use the experience to see a full works effort in LMP1. Unless of course the LMP2's are quick enough to push for the outright win?? (reliability permitting, the old MG-Lola EX257's were top 5 material over a good lap)

It'd be a shame for Courage/Pilbeam...etc to be budgeted out of competitiveness by works backed efforts. Especially as LMP1 is opening up with new regs & Audi are having to build a new car.

[Fax]

I've been under the impression for a couple of years now that the ACO and IMSA were planning to gradually phase out the LMP1 class and just have a single prototype class using the LMP2 regs as a platform.  This would explain the sudden interest in building LMP2 cars.
Fax

[Fax]

Chop,
You mentioned the old Acura-Spice effort from the IMSA GTP days.  Some fond memories there.  Good old Parker Johnstone was a hell of a Camel Lights racer, shame it didn't translate to CART Champ cars.  Spent a bit too much time trying to knock down cement walls for his own good.
Fax

[chop456]

Chop,
You mentioned the old Acura-Spice effort from the IMSA GTP days.  Some fond memories there.  Good old Parker Johnstone was a hell of a Camel Lights racer, shame it didn't translate to CART Champ cars.  Spent a bit too much time trying to knock down cement walls for his own good.
Fax

Too true.  In fairness, Brix/Comptech was a small team that didn't always run the full schedule.  He was fast on occasion, a good qualifier and driver/engineer, but as you said, keeping it in one piece is an important element of success.  

I got a poster of the Acura-Spice car the last year they raced at Road America, and I have yet to frame it.  Get off my back, it's only been 11 years.  What am I, a miracle worker?  

[Fax]

Chop, I can relate to your poster procrastination.  I've got a nice poster of the Momo Nissan GTP that Derek Bell signed for me over a decade ago at Mid-Ohio, I'll get it framed one of these days.  Parker always reminded me of Pete Haslmer,
both went like stink in sportscars but put 'em in a Champcar and look out!  All those years Pete tried to make the Indy 500, you just knew his month of May was going to end in Methodist Hospital eventually.
Fax

[chop456]

Chop, I can relate to your poster procrastination.  I've got a nice poster of the Momo Nissan GTP that Derek Bell signed for me over a decade ago at Mid-Ohio, I'll get it framed one of these days.

HAHA!

Does it look anything like mine?  



You're scaring me.  

[Kate Shaw]

Tony George wanted to run CART and they would not let him.  So he re-created CART for himself to run and now -- presto! -- it has imploded the same way the original CART did.  Those who will not learn from history....

I am now hearing that Honda is denying any plans to do anything in the ALMS or anywhere else.  Presumably they are going to try to figure out once and for all if it's worth buying BAR and trying to make the cars work properly, which ought to take up both time and money enough for the next 10 years or so.

[Fax]

Hey Chop,
Yep, thats it.  He signed that for me while I was getting him to sign a copy of his auto-bio "All My Racing Life" (highly recommended to anyone who's never read it) at Mid-Ohio right after Sat. morning practice had just ended.  If I remember correctly it was on a day about like today here in Cincinnati...boiling hot!  Super nice guy, very friendly.
Agree with you Kate, remember all those reasons that Tony George (from here on out refered to as "The Boob") gave for forming the IRL?  What does he have now?  Kinda looks like a poor mans CART to me.
Fax

[chop456]

For what it's worth....


AUTOWEEK
Published Date: 7/11/05
Honda eyes sports cars

Honda is investigating whether it wants to participate in the American Le Mans Series next year with a new sports car. News of Honda’s interest comes when its future in the IRL is unclear.

Honda had considered a Grand-Am entry where it would take on Pontiac, Ford, Lexus and Porsche. However, there is one big problem: The company does not have a V8 engine in its model range. An ALMS entry could work; its 3.0-liter IRL engine could be the basis for either an LMP1 or an LMP2 powerplant.

Honda U.S. racing boss Robert Clarke met with ALMS president Scott Atherton at Mid-Ohio in May. Honda-backed IRL team owners Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti, each of whom have made no secret of a desire to expand into sports car racing, also attended the event.

Neither Clarke nor Atherton are willing to discuss their meeting. However, rumor has it Honda is working on a 3.4-liter normally-aspirated LMP2 engine that could be fitted into the back of a proprietary chassis in time for next season and then turned into a twin-turbo LMP1 motor the year after.

[downshift62]

Also consider that Mid-Ohio is essentially Honda's home North American track.  They really want to return there.  Combine that with one of their top teams (Rahole) based in Columbus, with a history in IMSA racing (TrueSports).  Before they jumped to the EARL they were planning on fielding an Audi team in the ALMS.  They also had a partnership with Prodrive a couple of years ago to race one of their drivers.  Ever since Rahole split with Carl Hogan, he has been a factory team, first Honda, then Ford/Cosworth, now back to Honda.  They have no choice but to go where the engine money leads them.  If it leads them back home to Mid-Ohio that is even more incentive for Honda.

[Fax]

Yeah, I remember the partnership to race one of the Rahal drivers in a Prodrive Ferrari.  Something to do with a grossly over-hyped and over-rated little girl. If my memory's correct, after her first stint in a 550 at the Petit at Road Atlanta they about had to carry her out of the car.
Fax