Hurricane on US gulf coast

[johnevans3]

I'm sorry I've not been on the forum for a week now but I've been focused on the tragedy that happened on the gulf coast of the US.  Although I live in Texas now, my family and my wife's family live in the area that runs between Baton Rouge, Louisiana and Pascagoua, Mississippi. 
Many of you have probably seen the pictures that are coming out now and seen the devastation that spans 150 miles of coast land including New Orleans.  The area that has been destroyed, according so some reports, is the size of England, 90,000 square miles of leveled ground with a few structure shells remaining.  It looks like an atomic bomb was exploded.  We will know in the coming weeks about how many have died and how many will be missing and never found.
My wife's family of aunt's and cousins in the New Orleans area all evacuated before the storm and are alive but their homes were destroyed.  Her elderly father was evacuated from Pascagoula, Mississippi before the storm and is well but lost his home as well.  My family members are alive but homeless as well.
This is a tragedy that cannot be understood even by those at the scene.  Some of the CA members from Florida were just absolutely hammered last year week after week with hurricanes and know what this is all about.  I don't know how many of you have seen what a hurricane can do or a tornado but this storm was like a 150 mile wide tornado with 140+ mph winds that reached inland 100 miles to flatted many houses, blow trees down on houses, cut power, telephone, etc.  The 30+ foot wall of water that came ashore, like the tsunami, flatted everything in its path from 1/2 mile to as far as 6 miles inland from the shore for 150 miles.  Some have generators for power but now are running out of gas and won't have electricity for 4-8 weeks or longer.
Some of you guys that met Larry at Sebring, think about him today.  He has no power, no gas now, an occassional cell phone signal, and is sleeping with a gun by him to protect what little he has left.  His house has damage but it will be repaired.  He is one of the lucky ones.  There is some looting so it is a bad, bad situation.   Over 2 million people were placed in very primitive living conditions within just a few minutes.
If you have it in your hearts, please say a prayer for those who have been affected by this catastrophe.  I believe we are our brother's keeper.  I just wanted you guys to know what's happening.
John

[Chris24]

Our thoughts are with you guys over there, and your families. Hang on in there.

Best Wishes Chris

[Fax]

John,
My prayers are with the people on the Gulf coast.  As I mentioned on another thread, I'm horrified at the response to the situation down there.  It's not acceptable that its taken a week for the US government to get food, water and medical supplies to its own people in a time of crises.  Things have gone horribly pear shaped in this country and I think we know where it lies...in the White House!
Fax

[Nobby Diesel]

I am astonished by what has happened.
My thoughts go to all those who have been affected by this terrible disaster.
Why is there such a difference in the way the aftermath is being handled by those directly affected, when compared to South East Asia, after the tsunami?
I think we all need to take a good long look at ourselves and the "me first" mentality of the west.

The very best of luck to you all - hang in there.

[Andy Zarse]

Our thoughts are with you John and everyone touched by the natural disaster. It's hard to understand the power of hurricanes and the damage they wreek unless you've experienced it. Send my regards to Larry.

[johnevans3]

Hey Fax, I agree the disaster recovery efforts have been shameful.  Two points.
         1.  The media should have been in charge of the whole evacuation,
              recovery effort.   They were in place a week before the storm
              arrived saying it's bad and it's going to knock the crap out of
              somebody when it hits between the Florida panhandle and the
              upper Texas coast, then it narrowed a few days before to the New
              Orleans area.  The media rode the storm out and had commun-
              ications to report the storm hitting....and they were the only ones
              in place reporting the aftermath before and local, state, federal, or
              Red Cross types were on the scene.   They knew what was going on
              and where things needed immediate attention while the policiticians
              at all levels and "do gooders" were getting their act together.

         2.  A very interesting interview this AM with the mayor of New Orleans
              was aired and he said that when the President and his officials met
              with him and the Governor of Louisianna on Air Force One, there
              were two important points.
                a.   federal troops authorized by Bush must be "invited by the governor the state" before federal troops can enter the state to participate in the securing of the area.  Federal troops can't invade a state, they must be requested by the governor.  So Bush can't send troops in troops until requested but FEMA 's performance has been terrible and they should have been there the day after the hit.  However local authorities were being shot at and couldn't do much until the area was secured by local police (overwhelmed) and national guard (too few). 
                b.  according to the mayor, when Bush proposed two options to
the governor, she said she wanted 24 hours to make a decision.  This meeting was on Wednesday or Thursday, I believe.  The governor was paralyzed in her decision to request of the president federal troops to secure area.  What a dumb ass to want another 24 hours when the whole city is going down the toilet.

My deduction from that interview is that the mayor and governor of Louisianna screwed up alot more than Bush.  So you may be "Bush Bashing" a little bit too much in this case if the mayor is telling the truth.

I'm sure this will sort out as time goes on but human tragedy could have been far less if the governor and mayor leadership had been on the same page.  We all seem to be at the mercy of the politicians who are supposed to represent our best interests.

[Fax]

My biggest problem with the situation in New Orleans is that they knew in advance that a cat. 3 or higher hurricane could possibly breach the levees protecting the city.  Why in  the hell didn't they have troops, medical people, food, water & supplies staged and ready to move in right away when they knew Katrina was on the way?  I'm not just targeting Bush alone, our government as a whole seriously f**ked up.  The guy in charge of FEMA's head should roll for this.
Fax

[johnevans3]

Like you, for the life of me,  I don't understand why Fort Benning, Ga. and those bases in San Antonio weren't loaded really to roll literally as the hurricane eye was moving over Hattiesburg and Meridian leaving the coast behind.  They knew several days in advance this thing was a killer.  The military, supplies, FEMA, etc.  could have been brought in by circling in from the south, flown in from over the gulf.  Granted they didn't know about Louis Armstrong airport but could mount an assault like landing as in Normandy BUT they have to be requested by a dumb ass governor who thought she knew what she was doing and didn't have a clue and when the President is in her face offering military support, she wants to sit on her ass for another 24hrs.   Her own resources were not enough and I would bet that somebody somewhere had played out worse case drills about the anarchy and lawlessness that would occur when civilization infrastructure breaks down.  "Lord of the Flies" ain't new reading material even. 

[Snoring Rhino]

The time for recriminations is later - first get the aid to the right places quickly, we have had jokers here, asking why we should send aid (military ration packs) to the richest nation in the world - because the scale of the problem is huge, and we can, that’s why, it takes maybe 10 hours to fly from here in a cargo plane. These supplies are stockpiled with quick response in mind, that’s what they need, now whoever has admitted there's a problem, the rest of the domestic support can follow on.
Good to hear your folks are safe John - the rest can be rebuilt.

[Kate Shaw]

My parents were missed by this hurricane but were hit hard by Hurricane Ivan -- in a very small town of 1200 people, 85% Black and the rest elderly White people.  My prayers are with your family.  I know second-hand what they are going through.

As for all the people here who think that they could have handled the aftermath with laryngitis and no rehearsal, I'm going to copy a response by a member of the military to explain what will be needed to fix a disaster that has wiped out the same size territory that comprises your entire country.  Read through it and tell me where President Bush screwed up.

[Kate Shaw]

"I offer the following cross post from someone who knew what they were talking about before she opened her mouth. What do you think the National Guard is just sitting in 4x4s in the garage every day of the week?! They have families, are on vacation, jobs etc. Double oh my God, do you think trucks are just sitting around ready to roll to feed a half a million people in every state in the Union? Do you think they levitate 100s and 1000s of miles?

Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months!

A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up.

9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:

1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed.
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network.
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region.
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering.
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them.
6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in.
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest.
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours.
10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap.
11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work.
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again.

By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."

[Abs]

As for all the people here who think that they could have handled the aftermath with laryngitis and no rehearsal, I'm going to copy a response by a member of the military to explain what will be needed to fix a disaster that has wiped out the same size territory that comprises your entire country.  Read through it and tell me where President Bush screwed up.

WTF, Kate take another look at the thread and tell me where people are knocking Bush... from what I have read all are more concerned about the people caught up in this mess.

[jpchenet]

I'm sorry Kate but the majority of the comments below make no sense whatsoever!

"I offer the following cross post from someone who knew what they were talking about before she opened her mouth. What do you think the National Guard is just sitting in 4x4s in the garage every day of the week?! They have families, are on vacation, jobs etc. Double oh my God, do you think trucks are just sitting around ready to roll to feed a half a million people in every state in the Union? Do you think they levitate 100s and 1000s of miles? No-one suggests otherwise. But when you have probably one weeks notice that something is about to happen, you plan for it! TYou do not wait for it to happen and then try to get people together and arange transport.

Compare what happend at the start of the Korean War - when we emergency mobilized. It took a whole lot more than 3-5 days just to get the tanks to the ports - it took weeks and months! I hardly feel mobilizing your military to send it to Korea for a war can be compared to arranging aid to your own countrymen within your own country! Although from outside the US, it would seem that the current administration can react to events outside of the US faster than it can react in it's own backyard. I wonder how long it would take it would have taken to react if someone had sighted Osama Bin Laden

A shot across the bow - States want states rights. With that comes states responsibilities and the shame when they screw up.  This is exactly the beurocratic problem that has been created by the US that needs resolving!

9.05.2005
Katrina Aftermath Choke-the-LWM Moment # 749
As a former Air Force logistics officer, let me clarify the following for the idiots in the Left Wing Media:

1. Things can get destroyed far more swiftly than they can get fixed. Most obvious statement in the world
2. The United States military can wipe out the Taliban (debatable) and the Iraqi Republican Guard far more swiftly than they can bring 3 million Swanson dinners to an underwater city through an area the size of Great Britain which has no power, no working ports or airports, and a devastated and impassable road network. Helicopters
3. You cannot speed recovery and relief efforts up by prepositioning assets since the assets are endangered by the very storm which destroyed the region. Nonsense. You preposition them at a point where you know is safe (perhaps a further sixty miles out) By helicopter this is only an extra half an hour away!
4. We do not yet have teleporter nor replicator technology like you saw on "Star Trek" in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your worthless communications degree while the grownups actually engaged in the recovery effort today were studying engineering. No, but there are helicopters capable of lifting huge amounts of aid directly to the points that need it most
5. Getting people out of the stricken areas is the most pressing concern, since we cannot get enough supplies into it to safely sustain them. Getting them out is of course a priority, but a Sea King rescue helicopter can carry 24 people approx at a time. It could however carry iIN food and drink for 1000's. This needs to be a combined effort!6. Getting the airport, bridges, and roads repaired is the next priority, since the supplies and people needed to fix levees, drain the city, and repair the infrastructure cannot be transported via aircraft. You need to truck them in. They can be brought in by aircraft! A Chinook can carry as much as a truck, and transport it a lot quicker too!
7. Once the infrastructure is repaired, it is vital to get the ports in working order. Equipment and supplies can only be moved into the area in large quantities by sea.
8. Only then can recovery efforts begin in earnest. I'm sorry but recovery is not dependant on having the ports open to supply large equipment. I believe priorities are getting muddled here!
9. The above will take weeks and months, not days or hours. True, the rebuilding of the infrastructure will take months, if not years. But surely peoples lives are more important. No-one has criticised them for not rebuilding a road quickly, they are being criticised for net getting aid to those that need it fast enough, or making areas safe from armed looters.10. No amount of yelling, crying, and mustering of moral indignation will change any of the facts above. Facts are facts. Opinion is cheap. But the "facts" stated are wrong!11. You could do more help actually keeping your darned satellite trucks out of the way of the folks doing the real work. Interesting. So the networks satellite trucks can be there but aid trucks can't be??? Looks like a contradiction to item 3!
12. If you must vent your indignation, how about targeting the Louisiana officials who did absolutely nothing to protect their constituents? At least you can help ensure the populace doesn't elect these clowns again. I believe if you look at the discussions the main point of frustration has been the Louisiana officials and FEMA. That said, surely at the end of the day it is the White House administartion that must take final responsibility. Hell, if Bush had sent the Federal Guard in without the request of the governor and they saved peoples lives and made the area safe who the hell was going to complain. He didn't exactly wiat for the Iraqi's to request his intervention!
By the way, in Florida the Guard did a fantastic job over 4 storms. It still took 3 days to mobilize. In Mississippi the Gov got his act atheproblems the N.O. people did in LA. Compare and contrast all you want after they get the people out then assess non-political blame."

[Ballast]

This is clearly a very difficult time for the American people, especially those with family and friends affected by this disaster.

I would like to include my best wishes to all those involved. As IRW stated, "now is NOT the time to be pointing fingers". There are thousands upon thousands of people out there in desperate need of help, so perhaps it might be beneficial to those people, be they black, white, blue or orange if these petty arguments were put to one side and everyone started pulling in the same direction!

Kate - I think Mark has answered your rhetoric. Quite frankly I think you should perhaps take a deep breath before you start making statements like that.

John – I find it very hard to believe that a man of your intelligence could indicate that the “media” should have been put in charge of the evacuation. I’m sorry but that’s absolute rubbish. Let me ask you a theoretical (I hope) question. During the “evacuation” a film crew notices a young child has been seriously injured and is lying unattended in the street. What do you think the reaction of the film crew would be?

A – Drop all of there equipment, run to the aid of the child and use their network van to get the child to safety?

B- Get a good bit of film first and then aid the child?

C – Get a prize winning piece of film and then move along to the next harrowing piece of footage?

I would pray that it would be A but I think we all know that at BEST it would be B and might even b C

Yep. Great idea!

[Andy Zarse]

I'm kinda on Kate's side here.

First off, this is where Bush was given a right old panning on Club Arnage:

http://www.clubarnage.com/forum/index.php?topic=4168.0

Next, this "helicopters to the rescue" stuff is a load of  absolute nonsense, and lads, frankly I think you should know better. There were heicopters there, rescuing people out of the water. Helos have a remakably small pay load, but they do have a huge appetite for fuel, servicing and they need crewing by qualified human beings who are vulnerable to stress and tiredness. I would be very surprised if every airborn asset available wasn't already being flogged to death.

As it said, the devastation area is the size of the UK. Precisely how many bloody helicopters would it take to shift sufficient stores to look after everyone in disparate and remote communities? 1000? 2000? Your guess is as good as mine. But whatever the figure it's many, many more times than there were helos available. You need to look at the stats for the Berlin Airlift, where a transport aircraft landed at Templehof every forty five seconds, 24/7. Still the people of Berlin were starving and they had plenty of water there too. As for parking rescue vehicles in a safe area 60 miles away, I ask a) just how would anyone know where that safe area is before the storm hit, and b) there wasn't exactly a lot of notice was there?

No, IMO, the Louisiana state officials have a lot to answer for. Where was the disaster plan? Why was it not actioned?

I'm sure we all heard about the teenage boy who got together a load of old people and kids, and even though he'd never driven a truck before, took a "co-opted" yellow school bus to safety in Houston. Well, it seems he might now be stuck on a charge of taking and driving away without consent. Marvellous! This is in stark contrast to the photo I saw in the newspaper of a flooded parking lot of some 223 yellow school buses, pissing their fuel into the water. Apparently each bus has 66 seats, which means 14,718 seats in total. Per journey! Surely they could have been used to ferry people without their own transport (the old, the poor, the disadvantaged) to Houston or wherever and bring in aid? But oh no, they were locked up safely in the  Education Dept compound under armed guard and now they are all f**cked by water damage. Just one more example of the lack of initiativen by State Officials. I don't know whather they are Democrat or Republicans in Louisiana, but they had clearly been spending their time thinking up more stupid laws to obtain total mastery of peoples lives than spending time on working out how to protect their citizens.

Ballast, to defend John Evans, I don't think he was seriously suggesting that the media should assist in the aid effort. I took it to be an ironic statement, a rhetorical question if you like.

Finally, had Federal Govt sent in troops without State permission, I absolutely guarantee that the left wing media would be having a field day on Dubbya. And he'd probably be impeached too for a flagrant breach of one of the absolute fundamentals of the US Constitution.